Page 12 | If you're non-binary...

danyellspanyell · 2023-08-01T12:17:49+00:00

What does it mean? What does it mean to you? I'm not looking for GC responses to this - the GC take is obvious. I *genuinely* want to understand what this means. This came up on my Instagram and the comments were full of people saying they have the same struggle and I honestly can't get my head round what it actually means to be non-binary, particularly if you're happy 'presenting' as a woman (which you biologically are). What material impact does this non-binary-ness have on your life?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/08/2023 12:56

Change our language is emotive because it leads back into discussions about the erasure of women and connected topics

Well yes, so why imply that being "emotive" is wrong? You literally expect people to change the way they use language. I don't believe in gender identity ideology. I don't believe in "non binary". I don't believe in pronoun ownership.

WildUnchartedWaters · 02/08/2023 12:57

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/08/2023 12:54

It's not about the law. You are talking about the law, I'm talking about reasonable expectations. Pronouns denote sex.

But Katherine is her legal name, that's a fact.
So why should I change my language?
I was being flippant about the change of language but who decides a reasonable expectation?

Pronouns might suggest sex to you, biologically and legally but the whole point of their gender identity is that they have chosen not to identify with their pronouns. I would have more sympathy with the bigger argument for women but I find the I'm not changing my language argument petty.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/08/2023 12:58

I dont think anybody wants the kind of attention that being trans or nb in this current society gets you. The trans people I know want anything but attention.

The plural of anecdote is not data. Check out Twitter and Tiktok.

WildUnchartedWaters · 02/08/2023 12:59

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/08/2023 12:56

Change our language is emotive because it leads back into discussions about the erasure of women and connected topics

Well yes, so why imply that being "emotive" is wrong? You literally expect people to change the way they use language. I don't believe in gender identity ideology. I don't believe in "non binary". I don't believe in pronoun ownership.

It isnt, but it is in a discussion where that term automatically has connotations.

I know you dont. But they do. So it's a total impasse. And who wins? You. You hold all the cards.

I actually think despite other posts that her post about making adjustments and compromises to the NB people she knows was fair. Thats a whole world awa from 'no'.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/08/2023 12:59

But Katherine is her legal name, that's a fact.
So why should I change my language?

This is silly. Pronouns denote sex, or MTF trans people wouldn't want to be "she/her". I don't validate them either.

Helleofabore · 02/08/2023 13:01

WildUnchartedWaters · 02/08/2023 12:41

It's not prejudice, its spotting a pattern. I havent mentioned the law yet you have referenced in several times.

'You have explained nothing though. You have thrown a lot of words and phrases around and then declared that there is no 'definition'. You are here telling us what NB people think, you are not NB yet you seem to be speaking for them.'

That's just rude. You cant have it both ways, you and several other posters asked me how NB works so I told you my understanding. I didnt volunteer that information myself. I dont speak for anyone. You on the other hand appear to speak for all. There are plenty of people who will respect pronouns.

I have provided a coherent description. You just dont like it or think it exists. That's really not my problem. I'm not here to be approved by you.

I have taken on board your views even when they are different to mine and you have been nothing but rude to me.

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I think we have indirectly established that you and I have a very different opinion on what is 'rude'.

I am sure you believe that your explanations have been coherent. But they are not. Now, this might not be because YOU cannot explain it. It is likely that you are simply repeating what you have read and/or been told.

That others find it incoherent should be an indication that it is incoherent at concept level. Does it not strike you as weak that you told us it has no set definition? Now, that is not meant to be personal criticism. It is that this identity is exactly that. Weakly defined.

You keep mentioning that I keep including the 'law'. I am doing so to bring to people's attention that this group is seeking to change laws to suit themselves. An identity that is indefinable. This is a board discussing the impacts and conflicts on particular groups on the rights and protections of all female people. Why is my mentioning the 'law' an issue for you?

And please indicate where I have 'spoken for all'?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/08/2023 13:01

I know you dont. But they do. So it's a total impasse. And who wins? You. You hold all the cards.

Yes, that's life, I have freedom of speech, and so do they. The alternative is much worse.

WildUnchartedWaters · 02/08/2023 13:01

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/08/2023 12:58

I dont think anybody wants the kind of attention that being trans or nb in this current society gets you. The trans people I know want anything but attention.

The plural of anecdote is not data. Check out Twitter and Tiktok.

I'm aware there are idiots everywhere. I judge the situatio on the people I know.

I know a lot of utterly batshit feminist idiots but I dont judge all feminists by that standard.

Dont all of us judge from our lived experience?, is that not how the world works?

There are attention seekers in all walks of life. My friend is not an anecdote, hes a person with lived experience. His feelings are no or less valid than anyone elses.

WildUnchartedWaters · 02/08/2023 13:01

Helleofabore · 02/08/2023 13:01

I think we have indirectly established that you and I have a very different opinion on what is 'rude'.

I am sure you believe that your explanations have been coherent. But they are not. Now, this might not be because YOU cannot explain it. It is likely that you are simply repeating what you have read and/or been told.

That others find it incoherent should be an indication that it is incoherent at concept level. Does it not strike you as weak that you told us it has no set definition? Now, that is not meant to be personal criticism. It is that this identity is exactly that. Weakly defined.

You keep mentioning that I keep including the 'law'. I am doing so to bring to people's attention that this group is seeking to change laws to suit themselves. An identity that is indefinable. This is a board discussing the impacts and conflicts on particular groups on the rights and protections of all female people. Why is my mentioning the 'law' an issue for you?

And please indicate where I have 'spoken for all'?

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You honestly have no idea how rude and patronising you are.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/08/2023 13:02

His feelings are no or less valid than anyone elses

And nor are mine. Or my perception of the self obsessed, attention seeking illogical nature of claiming a "non binary" identity.

WildUnchartedWaters · 02/08/2023 13:03

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/08/2023 13:01

I know you dont. But they do. So it's a total impasse. And who wins? You. You hold all the cards.

Yes, that's life, I have freedom of speech, and so do they. The alternative is much worse.

I dont disagree with that, but I think refusing to change language is a very slippery slope.

WildUnchartedWaters · 02/08/2023 13:04

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/08/2023 13:02

His feelings are no or less valid than anyone elses

And nor are mine. Or my perception of the self obsessed, attention seeking illogical nature of claiming a "non binary" identity.

I think self obsessed is way off the mark

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/08/2023 13:04

I dont disagree with that, but I think refusing to change language is a very slippery slope.

In what sense? Should I also have to capitalise the g in god? Should have to genuflect when I say certain things?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/08/2023 13:06

I think self obsessed is way off the mark

Why?

WildUnchartedWaters · 02/08/2023 13:08

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/08/2023 13:04

I dont disagree with that, but I think refusing to change language is a very slippery slope.

In what sense? Should I also have to capitalise the g in god? Should have to genuflect when I say certain things?

I obviously dont think so because I dont believe in god 🤣 but I will respect others rights to do so. I wont openly contradict them.

I'm referring to homophobia, sexism, racism, ageism, ageism. Can you imagine a world where you can say it as long as it's true?

I cant think of a single scenario I would argue someone is attention seeking.

And I think you and I would agree that what leads to someone being nb or trans is certainly not waking up one day and thinking I absolutely love myself so much I'm going to do this.

But then I am of the al behaviour is communication brigade so maybe all hope is lost.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/08/2023 13:08

There are attention seekers in all walks of life. My friend is not an anecdote, hes a person with lived experience. His feelings are no or less valid than anyone elses.

Is he ok with you calling him "him"?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/08/2023 13:09

And I think you and I would agree that what leads to someone being nb or trans is certainly not waking up one day and thinking I absolutely love myself so much I'm going to do this.

Really? I think that's often the case, personally.

WildUnchartedWaters · 02/08/2023 13:10

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/08/2023 13:08

There are attention seekers in all walks of life. My friend is not an anecdote, hes a person with lived experience. His feelings are no or less valid than anyone elses.

Is he ok with you calling him "him"?

Yes- hes a trans man. Sorry, I digressed on the attention seeking topic.

That said, as much as I'm still open to NB I'm baffled by the whole being NB but with he or she pronouns. That's beyond me.

RebelliousCow · 02/08/2023 13:13

WildUnchartedWaters · 02/08/2023 12:34

I think we have different meanings of the world entitlement, or maybe I could have use a better one.

In the way I think people (away from the gender argument) are entitled to respect say, but it's not necessarily legally enforceable.

I think they're reasonable to expect it. With your reasoned post earlier I can understand that, although it's not my viewpoint, I do think people are entitled to have their pronouns heard and used. That's my belief. I understand you dont agree with it, and that it's not legal, and that as you proved you can feel and behave otherwise, but I personally believe they should be used. But that's only my views.

Re your last question, I do.
But that's where I've said its grey. Because ultimately you hold all the cards, and someone else holds none. You dont have to respect their belief, because you have one. You dont want theirs to trump yours but then ultimately what happens is yours trumps theirs.

I'm not completely sold on NB, but I respect that someone is and I will use those pronouns. What I wont dois back down in issues like womens sports , prisons, the rights of rape victims, but that's an different argument. If someone wants me to call them they then I will and i do believe people should. That's my belief.

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There are things that goes beyond individuals and is about commonly held or accepted reality. Without such commonality and agreement on basic terms, definitions or categories things tend to fall apart and become dysfunctional.

Sex is immutable. This is a commonly accepted scientific fact. Sex exists, even if you don't personally believe it does; sex is universal - even for those that have trans identities.

WildUnchartedWaters · 02/08/2023 13:14

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/08/2023 13:09

And I think you and I would agree that what leads to someone being nb or trans is certainly not waking up one day and thinking I absolutely love myself so much I'm going to do this.

Really? I think that's often the case, personally.

By what research? Watching idiots on tiktok?

I have seen some utterly odious feminists. I dont judge feminism for it.

If anything I believe that the idiots of any demographic do everything a disservice, and tbh again my trans and nb friends would agree. I appreciate your anecdote comment but if you've decided that most of these people are attention seeking I'm not sure why I'm expected to provide data. How does one measure attention seeking?

Even at irs very simple point, I would argue that by its nature someone who is trans isnt happy in their own skin.

And f someone does want what will be largely negative attention in the current day, should we sneer at them? Or try and feel some compassion and understand them and maybe consider that even though we dont believe in, they do?

I'm not suggesting nb should take over the world. But I think referring to anything as self obsessed and attention seeking without any real cause is unfair.
I'm happy in my own physical skin. I'm aware I'm lucky.

Helleofabore · 02/08/2023 13:14

WildUnchartedWaters · 02/08/2023 12:49

'Ultimately, people should not be shamed for not using someone's pronouns if they are not harassing or abusing the person. To shame someone for this is, in effect, prioritising that non-binary person's need for having their personal belief accommodated above another person's needs. '

Could you explain to me how you saying that is any different to me saying people should? It's your belief. What makes you the authority?

I actually respected your post earlier eve though I didnt agree but this persistence of trying to belittle me is getting tedious. If you dont like my views thats fine, we dont need to agree.

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"Could you explain to me how you saying that is any different to me saying people should? It's your belief. What makes you the authority?"

Did you actually read what I said? I am all for you having your own beliefs and your own boundaries. I respect that you do. I am stating quite clearly though that in return I point out that to shame anyone for having different boundaries and beliefs is wrong.

WildUnchartedWaters · 02/08/2023 13:14

RebelliousCow · 02/08/2023 13:13

There are things that goes beyond individuals and is about commonly held or accepted reality. Without such commonality and agreement on basic terms, definitions or categories things tend to fall apart and become dysfunctional.

Sex is immutable. This is a commonly accepted scientific fact. Sex exists, even if you don't personally believe it does; sex is universal - even for those that have trans identities.

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But nobody is actually denying that. I'm sure trans people are aware what their sex is.

Original poster

danyellspanyell · 02/08/2023 13:16

Gosh this is telling!

I'm referring to homophobia, sexism, racism, ageism, ageism. Can you imagine a world where you can say it as long as it's true?

So you think many common homophobic and racist ideas are true, it's just bad manners to say them out loud?

OP posts:

WildUnchartedWaters · 02/08/2023 13:17

Helleofabore · 02/08/2023 13:14

"Could you explain to me how you saying that is any different to me saying people should? It's your belief. What makes you the authority?"

Did you actually read what I said? I am all for you having your own beliefs and your own boundaries. I respect that you do. I am stating quite clearly though that in return I point out that to shame anyone for having different boundaries and beliefs is wrong.

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I dont think the majority of what you've written has shown respect.

I do try to read it but it's so rude and patronising it's difficult.

I'm aware that you think its wrong. For what it's worth I do too even though i might not agree with that action.

However, you're still completely unaware that what you have decreed is that if you think it, it's the case.

I've never made that assertion. I've not actually instructed anything. Ive got my belief on what people should do but I'm not their boss. you present your views as facts, not me.

WildUnchartedWaters · 02/08/2023 13:18

danyellspanyell · 02/08/2023 13:16

Gosh this is telling!

I'm referring to homophobia, sexism, racism, ageism, ageism. Can you imagine a world where you can say it as long as it's true?

So you think many common homophobic and racist ideas are true, it's just bad manners to say them out loud?

Yeah, that's exactly what I think.

It's about as telling about me as what you trying to imply there is about you.