If you're non-binary...

[danyellspanyell]

What does it mean? What does it mean to you?

I'm not looking for GC responses to this - the GC take is obvious. I genuinely want to understand what this means.

This came up on my Instagram and the comments were full of people saying they have the same struggle and I honestly can't get my head round what it actually means to be non-binary, particularly if you're happy 'presenting' as a woman (which you biologically are).

What material impact does this non-binary-ness have on your life?

Thanks. I respect that, I dont agree, but I respect it.

Did you or did you not use the words 'entitled to'?

I and others are trying to establish whether you understand that people are 'entitled' to think things about themselves, yet they are NOT 'entitled' to have anyone else fulfil their requests or demands to validate those beliefs about themselves.

It is important to the discussion because what it means is that you might have the expectation that if a non-binary person announces their pronouns that everyone in the UK has to respect those pronouns and use them. There is no legal requirement to do this.

So, no. What you seem to be categorising as an 'entitlement' in pronoun use is not actually an entitlement that others have to respect. The non-binary person IS entitled to think it and they should not be harassed or abused in expressing their belief, but NO ONE has to use those pronouns unless they wish to.

Just because you, and I mean you personally here, believe that you will use pronouns is only a reflection on the fact that you will agree to support a person's personal belief whereas others choose to not do so for many reasons.

Do you understand the difference between the right to hold a view vs a right to expect to have your personal beliefs upheld by others through actions and language?

"The issue, at root, is that people are being conditioned to centre their own feelings in all situations and expect public approval and/or validation for those feelings. And at that the root of that there lies a construction of the self of self identity that is wholly dependent upon that validation and acceptance".

"Without public validation or recognition that person ceases to exist - which leaving a gaping existential void; an annihilation. We are living at a time of increasing mental and emotional fragility - and that fragility is being seen as a virtue, rather than as a liability - and is being actively nurtured in people."

Yes. There has been this change towards centring the individual vs society. It is all about individualism vs collectivism.

It seems very concerning to have people absolutely believe that one person's self belief should be centred and revered. It is even more concerning when it is not based on fact and established knowledge but on pomo theories where if someone says they are something, then they are.

How do NB people manage in languages where there are no un gendered pronouns? The neutral ‘ they ‘ doesn’t exist in French, people and THINGs are either ‘male’ or ‘female’ , elle or il; ‘they’ as a plural becomes ils or elles. This isn’t just for people, it applies to what we would think of as unsexed objects, like tables and chairs. So if you ask ‘ where are the chairs’ the answer would be ‘ elles sont dans la maison’.

I believe this is similar in many Romance languages. Do people who think in these languages have a ‘neuter ‘ or ‘neutral’ concept in their language centre? So I suppose you could misgender a MTF orFtM , but not a NB person.

The other is one of the marathons where they have a category for non binary runners and an AFAB non binary person suggested they split the non binary into male and female categories to make it more fair.

That kind of "non binary" where the existence of sex was acknowledged, I would have less of a problem with. But most of the people claiming this identity don't see sex as relevant to anything.

I think we have different meanings of the world entitlement, or maybe I could have use a better one.

In the way I think people (away from the gender argument) are entitled to respect say, but it's not necessarily legally enforceable.

I think they're reasonable to expect it. With your reasoned post earlier I can understand that, although it's not my viewpoint, I do think people are entitled to have their pronouns heard and used. That's my belief. I understand you dont agree with it, and that it's not legal, and that as you proved you can feel and behave otherwise, but I personally believe they should be used. But that's only my views.

Re your last question, I do.
But that's where I've said its grey. Because ultimately you hold all the cards, and someone else holds none. You dont have to respect their belief, because you have one. You dont want theirs to trump yours but then ultimately what happens is yours trumps theirs.

I'm not completely sold on NB, but I respect that someone is and I will use those pronouns. What I wont dois back down in issues like womens sports , prisons, the rights of rape victims, but that's an different argument. If someone wants me to call them they then I will and i do believe people should. That's my belief.

"I'm sure youl get on to safe spaces etc soon"

And this is the prejudice that I am talking about.

"All I have done is explained what nb means to them"

You have explained nothing though. You have thrown a lot of words and phrases around and then declared that there is no 'definition'. You are here telling us what NB people think, you are not NB yet you seem to be speaking for them. You don't seem to have a problem in representing what they believe, yet you have failed to present a coherent description at all.

Is changing your pronouns actually going to liberate you from anything, or is it likely to turn every encounter into a charged confrontation where everyone either acquiesces to your request or fails to do so?

Is using 'they' actually going to change how people respond to you? What unforeseen consequences might there be? Is it possible some people may resent being compelled and therefore avoid interaction?

Excellent points.

My issue with that is sports is based on sex not gender. Nobody decided to separate them because of what they were, it's to do with strength and ability and fairness.

I'd quite like to swim in the fast lane at the pool but I'm not at that speed so I cant.

While i agree pronouns should be respected, i think when it comes to these issues they have to either compete with their sex or if they choose to, in non binary. That way if a nb biological woman chooses to compete with biological men the disadvantage is their choice.

In the same way I dont believe you can change sex but I will accept that they identify their gender as they.

I appreciate that's a muddled view of thinking.

I am definitely not gender critical.

You aren't in any way critical of externally imposed sex stereotypes?

It's not prejudice, its spotting a pattern. I havent mentioned the law yet you have referenced in several times.

'You have explained nothing though. You have thrown a lot of words and phrases around and then declared that there is no 'definition'. You are here telling us what NB people think, you are not NB yet you seem to be speaking for them.'

That's just rude. You cant have it both ways, you and several other posters asked me how NB works so I told you my understanding. I didnt volunteer that information myself. I dont speak for anyone. You on the other hand appear to speak for all. There are plenty of people who will respect pronouns.

I have provided a coherent description. You just dont like it or think it exists. That's really not my problem. I'm not here to be approved by you.

I have taken on board your views even when they are different to mine and you have been nothing but rude to me.

Of course I am. But i dont like it as a term.

In the same way we are all NB but dont identify as so.

"People are entitled to respect" sounds precariously close to "others must concur with my belief system and pay lip service to it even if they profoundly disagree.

Nobody is entitled to 'respect' - if by resepect you mean subservience.

Why do you think people should respect other people's identities rather than just accept that people have them.

Maybe we should just do away with sexed pronouns completely. If everybody and everything became ‘dit’ ‘dey’ ‘ dem’ etc, no one would have any reason to be offended or upset.

This wouldn’t effect single sex spaces, of course, because they would be labelled men and women.

No, it doesnt sound anything like that.

Because that's how I feel.

Incidentally, I dont know many NB or trans people who would kick up a huge fuss if someone messed up a pronoun unless it was done spitefully.

I've had my words policed more in this thread than by any of those people.

It appears you can police words and thoughts and actions when it suits but not when it doesnt.

Thank you for clarifying. I am glad that you have clarified that it is purely your personal belief to uphold someone's expectations as far as their identity is concerned.

There are many reasons that people will not use someone's preferred pronouns. If you have an issue and have judged someone as being somehow 'lesser' for not respecting that request, well that is your own issue stemming from your own beliefs and boundaries.

Ultimately, people should not be shamed for not using someone's pronouns if they are not harassing or abusing the person. To shame someone for this is, in effect, prioritising that non-binary person's need for having their personal belief accommodated above another person's needs.

People can label themselves as non binary - but it doesn't actually mean anything. It doesn't mean 'they are' non binary - if you get my point.

Non binary has nothing to do with the material reality of life on earth - it is a contemporray descriptor for people who want to express themselves in individual ways according to their nature. The thing is we live in a modern liberal society in which most expressions are now tolerated and even fully accepted. All of us are 'non binary' in that we are all a mixture of differnt traits and preferences. None of us is wholly a stereotype.

This. It's meaningless, at best. At worst it's attention seeking, self obsession and power tripping.

I think the level of take up with NB identities in young women shows a failure of tackling gender stereotypes quickly enough (we were making good headway) and women and girls not talking honestly to each other about how they really feel.

There's also loads of other factors with girls such as internalised misogyny, shame of being lesbian or bi, peer pressure.

There's so many in fact that I think declaring an NB identity is just saying 'you are human' and kind of is meaningless really.

In women's football it seems to mean you are the girl without long flowing hair. 🤣

'Ultimately, people should not be shamed for not using someone's pronouns if they are not harassing or abusing the person. To shame someone for this is, in effect, prioritising that non-binary person's need for having their personal belief accommodated above another person's needs. '

Could you explain to me how you saying that is any different to me saying people should? It's your belief. What makes you the authority?

I actually respected your post earlier eve though I didnt agree but this persistence of trying to belittle me is getting tedious. If you dont like my views thats fine, we dont need to agree.

I dont think anybody wants the kind of attention that being trans or nb in this current society gets you. The trans people I know want anything but attention.

I do think people are entitled to have their pronouns heard and used.

I don't believe people own "pronouns". They just denote sex. So no I don't believe they are entitled to have others change their language to validate them.

My issue with that is sports is based on sex not gender. Nobody decided to separate them because of what they were, it's to do with strength and ability and fairness.

Yes it's my issue too, obviously 🙄 I was just pointing out that it isn't common for people identifying as "non binary" to acknowledge that sex is relevant to anything.

So if someones name is Katherine but prefers Katie I can just repeatedly call them Katie because that's what the law says and she cant change my language?
Or do we only not change when it doesnt suit us?

Change our language is emotive because it leads back into discussions about the erasure of women and connected topics, (most of which I would agree with you on, as I've said upthread).

Not sure why the eye roll, I was agreeing with you, and acknowledging that I think it's a separate conversation where sex plays a factor.

It's not about the law. You are talking about the law, I'm talking about reasonable expectations. Pronouns denote sex.