If you're non-binary...

[danyellspanyell]

What does it mean? What does it mean to you?

I'm not looking for GC responses to this - the GC take is obvious. I genuinely want to understand what this means.

This came up on my Instagram and the comments were full of people saying they have the same struggle and I honestly can't get my head round what it actually means to be non-binary, particularly if you're happy 'presenting' as a woman (which you biologically are).

What material impact does this non-binary-ness have on your life?

Great question - I'd like to know this too.

An old acquaintance (in her 40s) has just 'come out' as non binary and I do not want to be rude and ask her why (she is still using female pronouns before anyone has a go).

If I believed in this stuff I would definitely "qualify" as NB, and I know how I'd explain it. But I don't, and I'm not so I won't.

How do you ‘know’ you are binary? Too much naval gazing.

Parking myself to find out with you all.

I'm keen to understand too. I presume it has something to do with not fully relating to the stereotype - but who does? And what is the stereotype anyway? I don't wear pink, ever. Does that count?

The "change my view" forum on Reddit has had a few posts on this, including comments from people who identify that way:

CMV: There is no such thing as a non-binary gender, and we should not honor the concept of non-binary genders in society

CMV: I think the non-binary gender identity is unnecessary

CMV: I can't seem to believe in non-binary

For those people at least, it seems to be about not conforming to stereotypes.

Well when I was crazy I cut all my hair off and dressed in all black androgynous clothes. I felt less feminine and that my gender was irrelevant

Fabulous question that never really seems to be asked. Like we are supposed to know as if by magic what it actually means to that individual.

Immediate fail. That should be with y'all.

If your gender is truly irrelevant it shouldn't matter whether you dress feminine or not. It certainly doesn't to me.

Those reddit threads make me extremely grateful for mumsnet's clarity and logic.

Non-binary sex I could just about get if you're intersex or have had some surgery or some other condition that means you don't fit biological definitions of male or female.

Non-binary gender seems to always imply a behavioural binary that isn't there. We're all a mix of feminine and masculine (if you take those as qualities of softness vs assertiveness etc). There might be some behaviours or stereotypes of what it means to be a man or a woman, feminism was about breaking those down and the gender woo stuff seems to be about reinforcing them so a small minority can claim to be superior.

In short - I'm a woman, that doesn't limit what it is possible for me to be in the world, non-binary status seems to suggest I'm hiding in a box that will limit my potential.

My understanding is non binary is when you don't conform to masculine or feminine stereotypes and don't want to be constrained by the boxes. I always think it's just a step away from being gender critical if I'm honest.

The main thing I took from the reddit discussion I read was that the non binary people feel they don't fit in with the cultural idea of what a man/woman is. So, seemingly powerless to change anything, they identify out of the binary.

Maybe that's why when people grow up a bit they realise they have the ability to do what they like and find other people who accept them despite being a bit gender non-conforming. It all feels very teenage to me - I'm not blokey enough for my mates so I must be non binary etc

There aren't any obvious youth subcultures anymore; the sort that used to revolve around music, clothing, hairstyles, make-up and generally being non-conformist ( punk/emo/goth) - so now we have 'non-binary'.

Also young people seem to be taking far longer to grow up - and are streching their years of youthful exploration out ad infinitum.

'Non binary' is just a pose - a way of saying " Look at me" I'm special.

In my day it was wearing a slipknot or Marilyn Manson hoody vs a limp biscuit style baseball cap and baggy jeans.

Yeh, and people have been rocking the pink/blue/green/red/purple/ hair for many decades. I used to have lilac hair - and wear lots of black.

I thought I understood non binary and for the girls I have met through my own children who are now non binary it could even be empowering. A big fuck off. Then the pink haired surgeon started talking about the non binary surgeries and now just as confused. If opting out of the stereotypes then no change is really required

From the teens I've seen there seems to be the cohort that are attention seeking and then the ones who use their 'identity' as a mask to hide behind. A form of misguided self preservation which unfortunately is leading to self harm.

When I was in school my sisters year had the cutters, and mine had the goths.

There’s confusion over sex and gender with it. I’ve seen definitions where it says you don’t identify as male or female which would explain some of them having breasts removed I guess? But then for most it seems just a rejection of the stereotypes and expectations- the most common non-binary female I see it one with short hair and no make up, why that needs a special identity I don’t know and why you’d want to keep women as some stereotype I also don’t get.

Non binary is obviously gender critical.

Non binary is not a gender because, as we are so often educated told, gender isn't binary.

It's simply a rejection of sex based stereotypes.

It's just a label. Lots of people like to label themselves and others. The world seems a neater place if everyone has a box into which they can be tidied. And if you don't like the look of box A or box B, then call yourself C and dive into box C.

I'm quite femme I guess. But I wear very little make up, never wear heels, pink looks ghastly on me, I did a high powered degree in the days when ambitious girls were still being told to do a secretarial course (the less ambitious ones were pointed towards child care). Am I NB? Am I f**k. I'm a woman, but most importantly of all, I'm happy (enough) being me.

This really interests me - what surgery could you have that would make you not fit the biological definition of your sex?

I've had my reproductive system removed. All of it.

Am I now no longer female?

And if not female, then what? The two remaining options are male or sexless and I don't fit the definition of either of those.

I'm a bit puzzled as to why you posted your question here, in the section of Talk that was specifically set up to silo off feminists, if you specifically don't want their opinions?