If you're non-binary...

[danyellspanyell]

What does it mean? What does it mean to you?

I'm not looking for GC responses to this - the GC take is obvious. I genuinely want to understand what this means.

This came up on my Instagram and the comments were full of people saying they have the same struggle and I honestly can't get my head round what it actually means to be non-binary, particularly if you're happy 'presenting' as a woman (which you biologically are).

What material impact does this non-binary-ness have on your life?

Thanks for your kind offer. I was addressing the OP’s query, the OP being the one who wants feedback.

I know 3 women who fairly recently switched to she/they pronouns. They are all quite different - a mid-fifties senior manager married with adult kids, a 30-something gender non-conforming bisexual etc. I genuinely don't know their reasoning (and I'm afraid asking will lead to an uncomfortable conversation I'm not yet ready to have with any of them).

They are generally independent women, not the type to want to be with the in-crowd. None have changed their appearance at all. Everyone still uses 'she' pronouns for them and treats them exactly the same. Perhaps its the soft-launch of something more drastic?

From my observations both gender critical and non-binary perspectives stem from a dissatisfaction with the way sex stereotypes (aka gender) are promoted and perpetuated in our societies. The GC angle seeks to analyse and change the structural factors that lead to this, whereas the NB perspective seems to be an individualised response to opt out of it.

The acceptance of the existence, applicability and enforcement of sex stereotypes for other people seems to be part of NB thinking - thus they can opt out. The very act of opting out in this way reinforces the relevance of sex stereotypes for others who haven't 'opted out'. This individualided, some might say narcissistic, solution therefore sees the problem but doesn't GAF about the impact of it on anyone but themselves.

I've heard the argument that it's pragmatic; a reasonable way to deal with a problem where changing the system is deemed unrealistic, and that if enough people become NB it will tip the balance. I don't buy it. Being NB comes with its own stereotypes for a start. And women as a class are oppressed because of their biology.

Feminine sex stereotype enforcement is one way to oppress women (just as masculine sex stereotype enforcement elevates men), but it's not the only way. There are structural and cultural issues at play too, which NB does not address. An example is the status/renumeration of care giving roles vs the historically male dominated professions.

There's also the issue of denial of material reality, and the slippery slopes that leads to.

In summary, NB ideology throws others under the bus.

This bit resonated with me -

"...but get on with leading a happy and useful life - and maybe stop thinking about yourself such a lot and find something kind and productive to do."

Because the whole thing is so steeped in self obsessive navel gazing. The experiences I've had with those who declare themselves 'non binary' is that they are desperately looking for something to mark themselves out as unique and special. But instead of doing something - following a passion, getting really expert in an interesting subject, getting really into a genre of music or film or books, volunteering etc etc - all their focus is on making someone else dance to their tune.

Yes, but the answers never make much sense.

And IRL things get tense if you say so. I don't care enough to get into rows with people I work with/know loosely, but I would love for someone to define or explain it in a way that makes any sense at all.

@BigTedLittleTedCardboardBox

Thought provoking, thanks. I agree fully that NB is a personal rather than political act.

To me it raises one important question to ask any NB person. Are we all NB and just need to realise it (political enbyism) or is it a personal thing which marks you as unusual and special ( personal enbyism).

I am the former. Gender is a crock and nobody is a stereotype. We are all enby.

Of course we are, Bez.

All the non-binary people I’ve met are not in the least bit attention seeking or navel gazing - they are low key matter of fact about their identity and pronouns, and we treat them the same way we always did, except we respect their wishes with regards to the way they relate to the male-female gender binary discourses and practices, and with regards to how they wish to be addressed. It seems strange that so many people on this thread appear to have encounted attention seeking non binary people - could it be that they are not actually attention seeking, just getting on with their lives?

@HejLittleAppleBlossom

"we respect their wishes with regards to the way they relate to the male-female gender binary discourses and practices,"

Can you explain a little more about this? What is the male-female gender binary discourses and practice? How do people stating a non-binary identity relate to it, and how is that different to other people?

we respect their wishes with regards to the way they relate to the male-female gender binary discourses and practices

But what on earth does this mean? Beyond using the them/they pronouns (if that's what they want) what actual, material difference does it make? Can you give any concrete examples?

Nope. The ones I've met are intensely attention seeking. Tediously so.

I am a political enbian but I don't ever mention it unless it comes up. So far it hasn't, at least in real life

Well according to the jelly baby gender spectrum Mermaids I think I must be
non binary.

And yet, I’m not because it’s quite simply a crock of shite.

Absolutely - the political vs the personal. I think most non-binary I've met are very much in the personal camp.

The bit about gender ideology that makes the least sense to me is that it implies the existence of people fully signed up to and adhering to all their applicable sex stereotypes. I've not met a single person that even comes close. I don't think we're all NB though, even if we're all 'non-conforming'. To be NB implies an acceptance of gender ideology, at odds with a GC position.

"When I hear 'non binary' I just think of people who want to be in the 'in crowd' and thought a bit unique - as if nobody before has ever developed some individualistic character."

Oh the irony of being in the "in crowd" and also "a bit unique"!!

Sounds like your common or garden confused young person really.

You can't be "a bit unique" - unique can not be qualified people

Yes these people were goths back in the last millennium

Dear OP, thanks for asking a meaningful question. The thread has attracted over 60 responses around the question but, sadly, not one reply from a person who actually identifies as non-binary. Either non-binary people don't follow FWR or no non-binary person who does follow is confident in explaining it.

Maybe, sometime in the future....

By the discourses and practices I mean the way in which males and females are, very broadly speaking, conceived of and established in society - the stereotypes, the roles assigned, the ways in which people relate to them in different situations. My understanding from NB friends is that they don’t identify as the gender matching their biological sex, but neither are they trans and identify with the other biological sex. They position themselves away from the broad gender typicalities because they don’t feel that either gender reflects their experiences of how they choose to interact with the world.

@HejLittleAppleBlossom isn't that true of nearly all women (and men)? Who does identify with all shit pushed on women by society??

Most gender critical people would say the same including myself.

There's very little difference between GC and NB apart from the fact that NB need to state their lack of gender conformity to the world. I personally couldn't think of anything more cringe.

But this brings me back to my original question....what difference does any of this 'identifying' with/as make to anyone's life?

Can you - can anyone - give any real, concrete examples of how life, treatment, whatever, is actually affected by deciding that you're non-binary?

Indeed! I have thought about this point a lot myself. I don’t know the answer. But I think that while being female does by no means mean that you accept all the shit women get in this life, it is nonetheless an active alignment with the gender. NB is, I think, more like an active disalignment with the gender identity - making a space where there are options to be treated in new ways.

Gender theory is centred around and reinforces sex based stereotypes and gender roles, most of us don’t completely fit into gender roles and stereotypes, how “feminine” and “masculine” people are is naturally a spectrum and depends upon the culture you live in.

Some women are very traditionally (in their society) feminine and others are very traditionally masculine. There is no binary, and by saying that someone who rejects or doesn’t participate in all of the gender stereotypes and expectations their society imposes on means they are not a man/woman is extremely reductive as it just reinforces and validates those stereotypes and expectations placed on men and women.

It achieves the exact opposite of what these people are trying to achieve and they can’t see it, it’s not progressive it’s regressive.

Not many, but here are the ones I have noticed - the NB persons are freer, they are not hiding a big part of their selves, so they are not carrying that weight with them - openly identifying as NB has a positive impact on their mental health. It impacts the way we talk to them - I make fewer assumptions about what the outcome of a discussion might be, there are more ways of understanding shared and other experiences.

I think it means different things to different people.

I think it could be mild dysphoria and not feeling comfortable in your own skin, not relating to people your own sex (because you don't fit into stereotypes or with your peers).

Also it seems to be simply gender non conforming. Like the punks or goths were. So there's something of fashion and subculture about it.

Personally I'd be open to the label if it simply meant gender non conforming, it's when it means you are literally neither a man or a woman that it gets bonkers.