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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Grace Lavery reviews Helen Joyce, Julie Bindel, and Kathleen Stock

127 replies

ArabeIIaScott · 01/08/2023 12:28

https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/gender-criticism-versus-gender-abolition-on-three-recent-books-about-gender/

Lavery is very proud of this piece. I've got halfway through and am going to have to have a wee break and maybe a nap.

So far, I gather that Lavery knows far more than these women do about womanhood, because Lavery has read a lot of books.

Gender Criticism Versus Gender Abolition: On Three Recent Books About Gender

Grace Lavery reviews Julie Bindel’s “Feminism for Women: The Real Tribute to Liberation,” Helen Joyce’s “Trans: When Ideology Meets Reality,” and Kathleen Stock’s “Material Girls: Why Reality Matters for Feminism.”...

https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/gender-criticism-versus-gender-abolition-on-three-recent-books-about-gender

OP posts:
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17
SinnerBoy · 02/08/2023 08:51

WarriorN · Yesterday 15:42

Full disclosure: I withdrew from a scheduled public debate with Helen Joyce after I learned that the host she had chosen for the event had published articles I considered antisemitic.

That's an interesting way for Graceless to explain that them knew that them would have the floor wiped with they, should them attempt to argue with Helen Joyce.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 02/08/2023 08:52

Didn’t Lavery get kicked off Twitter for saying something nasty about the dear old queen? I imagine he’s back now simply because he’s allowed back now Elon Musk is in charge.

TheClogLady · 02/08/2023 08:57

SinnerBoy · 02/08/2023 08:51

WarriorN · Yesterday 15:42

Full disclosure: I withdrew from a scheduled public debate with Helen Joyce after I learned that the host she had chosen for the event had published articles I considered antisemitic.

That's an interesting way for Graceless to explain that them knew that them would have the floor wiped with they, should them attempt to argue with Helen Joyce.

Whereas most people would request an alternative host - much less disruptive than cancelling the whole thing!

Of course, we know that Grace actually changed Grace’s mind after pressure to do so by various British TRAs (including Monty and CursedE Slater, IIRC?)

Waitwhat23 · 02/08/2023 08:58

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 02/08/2023 08:52

Didn’t Lavery get kicked off Twitter for saying something nasty about the dear old queen? I imagine he’s back now simply because he’s allowed back now Elon Musk is in charge.

Hoped she died of COVID, afaicr.

Dramatico · 02/08/2023 09:02

If Lavery wants gender abolished then why does Lavery need to be affirmed as a woman and why would anyone have dangerous surgeries to appear more like the opposite sex?

Also how would Lavery explain why one sex commits vastly more sexual violence upon the other, than vice versa? And if gender is abolished, what could be the implications of this?

Not gotcha questions I would genuinely be interested in Lavery's answers.

Also I would like to mention to Lavery that fey postmodernist Foucauldian wordplay does not substitute for arguments based on empirical evidence.

TheClogLady · 02/08/2023 09:15

Can I please nominate Grace Lavery for a one on one televised interview with Andrew Neil?

PriOn1 · 02/08/2023 09:45

TheClogLady · 02/08/2023 08:57

Whereas most people would request an alternative host - much less disruptive than cancelling the whole thing!

Of course, we know that Grace actually changed Grace’s mind after pressure to do so by various British TRAs (including Monty and CursedE Slater, IIRC?)

Monty and Cursey are both intelligent enough to know not to engage their paucity of argument and evidence in a discussion with intelligent women wielding reason and fact.

Interesting that Lavery does not even have the self-awareness to recognise what would happen.

fromorbit · 02/08/2023 20:47

PriOn1 · 02/08/2023 09:45

Monty and Cursey are both intelligent enough to know not to engage their paucity of argument and evidence in a discussion with intelligent women wielding reason and fact.

Interesting that Lavery does not even have the self-awareness to recognise what would happen.

That is why no debate was a key strategy. Lavery is isolated to sniping at the UK from the safety of Berkley. A pity he would be trainwreck in debate.

TheClogLady · 02/08/2023 20:58

Currently wondering if I CBA to photoshop Lavery into this picture.

Plenty of room for more TRA Bobble Heads on that table!

Grace Lavery reviews Helen Joyce, Julie Bindel, and Kathleen Stock
SequentialAnalyst · 02/08/2023 21:03

Gender abolitionists haven’t cared what a woman is, who wants to be one, or why;

Eh?

Hepwo · 02/08/2023 21:20

TheClogLady · 02/08/2023 20:58

Currently wondering if I CBA to photoshop Lavery into this picture.

Plenty of room for more TRA Bobble Heads on that table!

Do it!

MavisMcMinty · 02/08/2023 21:33

2 days later there are 0 comments on Lavery’s piece.

MavisMcMinty · 02/08/2023 21:36

TheClogLady · 02/08/2023 09:15

Can I please nominate Grace Lavery for a one on one televised interview with Andrew Neil?

There is no way any self-respecting TRA would subject themselves to an Andrew Neil grilling, but yes, that would be great!

teawamutu · 02/08/2023 22:19

MavisMcMinty · 02/08/2023 21:33

2 days later there are 0 comments on Lavery’s piece.

Reflective of the number who managed to finish it?

MavisMcMinty · 03/08/2023 01:31

Ha ha! I just scrolled all the way down to the comments, then scrolled all the way to the top again to see the “0 comments” button. Didn’t actually read it.

fromorbit · 09/08/2023 17:02

Lavery tried to argue that men are not physically stronger than women with Martina Navratilova on Twitter and got crushed. If there was only someway to broadcast this sexist drivel worldwide then this TRA cause would all be over.

https://twitter.com/Martina/status/1688571361562644480

Remember this is one of the TRA cause leading "intellectuals".

Grace Lavery reviews Helen Joyce, Julie Bindel, and Kathleen Stock
BernardBlacksMolluscs · 09/08/2023 17:44

God he’s such an over privileged fuck wit isn’t he?

Backstreets · 09/08/2023 17:46

The delusion is strong in this one

ArabeIIaScott · 09/08/2023 19:46

''I encourage you—brilliant and unusual body!—to rethink.' - wait a minute, is Lavery addressing Martina Navratilova as 'brilliant and unusual body'?

What the fuck? Who the fuck does this patronising weirdo think he is?

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Meanacademic · 09/08/2023 19:46

I enjoyed this review of Lavery‘s penis memoir by fellow TW academic McKenzie Wark:

https://www.liberreview.com/issue-1-1-cocky-as-hell

There’s an interesting passage about male privilege which tends to be reduced to the possession of male genitals; sadly, there is no real reflection on the fact that we are male or female with our whole bodies. This obsession with genitalia is really quite disturbing sometimes … anyway, here’s the quote:

“So, the dick is doubly a problem if you’re born with one but figure out, early or late, that you’re not a man. You don’t want to be marked by the sign of the phallus—but you still have a dick. Especially if your dick was a big one, and you liked to fuck with it. Fuck women with it. As Grace’s soon-to-be ex-girlfriend says, it’s as if Lavery was trying to fuck her way into her body, which is where I wrote in the margin: girl, same! “

1.1 Cocky as Hell — LIBER: A Feminist Review

https://www.liberreview.com/issue-1-1-cocky-as-hell

terryleather · 09/08/2023 20:03

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 09/08/2023 17:44

God he’s such an over privileged fuck wit isn’t he?

I think you're giving him more credit than he's due tbh...

lechiffre55 · 09/08/2023 20:12

I think Lavery's biggest problem is people reading the words he's written.

ArabeIIaScott · 09/08/2023 21:20

Meanacademic · 09/08/2023 19:46

I enjoyed this review of Lavery‘s penis memoir by fellow TW academic McKenzie Wark:

https://www.liberreview.com/issue-1-1-cocky-as-hell

There’s an interesting passage about male privilege which tends to be reduced to the possession of male genitals; sadly, there is no real reflection on the fact that we are male or female with our whole bodies. This obsession with genitalia is really quite disturbing sometimes … anyway, here’s the quote:

“So, the dick is doubly a problem if you’re born with one but figure out, early or late, that you’re not a man. You don’t want to be marked by the sign of the phallus—but you still have a dick. Especially if your dick was a big one, and you liked to fuck with it. Fuck women with it. As Grace’s soon-to-be ex-girlfriend says, it’s as if Lavery was trying to fuck her way into her body, which is where I wrote in the margin: girl, same! “

Yes, some interesting insights in that review.

'Please Miss seems particularly preoccupied with writing under the gaze of the kind of “gender-critical” feminists who hate us and desire the moral and legal prohibition of our kind. The “Grace Lavery” that emerges does so not with measured distances and affinities to a matrix of other variations on trans femininity but as a display of defensive tactics against an enemy. Its ground tone is paranoia.
“There are as many genres of transness as there are genres,” Lavery writes. This book’s strategy in relation to all of these readerships—trans, cis, and the haters in particular—is one of excess. It’s a tactic many trans women will recognize: make yourself look big, wild, unpredictable. It scares them off. There are extended discursions into other genres, styles, voices—bits, some of which are brilliant. (The trans reading of Wilde’s Salome, for example.) As Lavery mentions more than once, her impulse is to want to appear clever, and
the text succeeds in drawing attention to its cleverness. It’s a text that wants to impress rather than seduce. '

Nobody 'hates' you, mate. And women wanting their own spaces, words, and time free of males isn't quite 'prohibition'.

Pretty stunning that we're at this point, though. That women wanting merely to keep some places, spaces, times, free of males, is classed as 'hate', and routinely accepted as such. What a time to be alive.

OP posts:
Meanacademic · 10/08/2023 12:50

Sometimes I wonder if this particular brand of TG culture is just repackaged lad culture. The constant penis jokes. The misogyny. The secret desire for a telling off from mum (the GC ‘haters’) who is the only one who cares.

Wark seems to be bragging about having a very ‘big‘ cock with which Wark has ‘fucked’ a significant number of women, penetrating them vigorously. Phwoar. What a … hang on, but Wark isn’t a man! Oh no! Now everyone is confused!

This is literally the joke. That’s it.

SequentialAnalyst · 10/08/2023 13:19

That review is quite something!

Is saying/posting/writing Girl, same!

a) common usage among women and girls in the US?
b) what they think is common usage among women and girls in the US?
c) a special way of acknowledging a fellow transwoman?

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