Now that some *men* are commenting, it's all changing over on Twitter...

[Qbishy]

So Andrew Neil is tweeting about a detransitioner today, Richard Dawkins wrote that piece in the NS that has been shared and commented widely, and Wes Streeting has (kind of) apologised to Rosie Duffield.

It seems like now some men are getting in on the act, people are paying attention 🙄 I'm not criticising them, but honestly, WHERE HAVE THEY BEEN ALL THIS TIME???

Suzanne Moore is, understandably, furious now that Labour has (supposedly) changed its tune, having been terfed out (see what I did there) of the Guardian by Kath Viner. Helen Lewis equally fed up. As are many more women.

It's lovely that men are finally taking notice. But so incredibly frustrating that women's voices just don't count.

(One person on X posited that the tide turned when Elon Musk took it over and allowed wrongthink to be published... that could be the case, too.)

Someone I was friends with for over 40 years married an American woman who is full-on TWAW and he's going along with her views. It's sad, but I can't see us getting together again.

Just catching up with the thread.

My apologies to Glinner! A true ally. Aslo apols to Wings Over Scotland.

I guess I was talking about the more "mainstream" men, who aren't labelled as male TERFs like the two above.

Men like to be right!

Like customers, men are always right.

It depends what you mean by feminist. I have always been in favour of women's rights but I until recently would have had no idea which category of feminist I might fall into. I was certainly never a bra-burning man-hater.
I suppose given my age, I am likely closest to a Germaine Greer 2nd Wave type but what does it matter really apart from the fact that many younger 'intersectional feminists' are centring 'men' in their feminism and acting against their own sex's and children's interests.
We could cut them the slack of having been indoctrinated into 'being kind' and having been told sinisterly that 'free speech has consequences'. When the whole point of free speech is that you should be challenged with counter-arguments rather than cancelled for 'wrong think'.

Bra burning man haters are caricatures of (mostly second wave) feminists that don't really exist, made up to scare people off or sneer at women who dared to rock the boat.

They created a neat path into nice, fun, friendly lib feminism that is less challenging to the orthodoxy.

I can see people's frustration but personally I think the more people speaking up the better. I woke up to trans ideology in 2017 when it impacted me directly. I felt like a bit of a fraud and latecomer at the time because I had previously been a "be kind" person and I couldn't work out how I had not understood what was going on from the start. We need it to be acceptable again to state the truth. For this to happen TERFism needs to go mainstream. That means people from all political and social backgrounds, all religions and ethnicities, men and women of all ages and sexualities throwing a spanner in the works. This also includes annoying people who don't appear to have previously listened to a word women have been saying for the last 20 years (or so). Also I agree there's quite a few nice men that have stuck their necks out over the last few years and who have suffered the consequences.

You should probably kick off at Janice Turner as well, then - here she is, replying to Andrew Neil:

AN: I understand that. But we allowed it to happen. In my case because I had no idea such things could be done to young, vulnerable people. I feel ashamed and angry. It must be stopped

JT: Andrew, I wrote this in thetimes 6yrs ago. Other female journalists HadleyFreeman, helenlewis, sarahditum and suzanne_moore were also raising the alarm & we were vilified. Yr support now is most welcome, but also a lesson for men not to tune out women

https://twitter.com/VictoriaPeckham/status/1685252800362500096?s=20

Children sacrificed to appease trans lobby (thetimes.co.uk)

Her article, from six years ago:

Children sacrificed to appease trans lobby (thetimes.co.uk)

Great article, thanks for the link. And six effing years ago! Most of it could have been written today. How long it’s taken for people to catch up.

That article is extraordinarily accurate and wide ranging in its understanding given it was written six years ago before the Cass report and so much else.

Thank you for posting that.

Bloke here . I was first alerted to this whole problem in 2017 by another bloke who told me he agreed with a third bloke called Graham Linehan. I've been posting about it since then. Been booted from a few group chats , mainly by women.

This means nothing of course - except I don't have the profile of Andrew Neil. Or JKR for that matter.

When men tell men that works.

My DH tuned me out, but then to be fair on him, did read people like Janice Turner and from then in was more willing to listen.

Good to hear that some men were listening! And trying to get the message out there.

It's the handmaidens who are (almost) the worst 😡

I think he's just relieved he might finally get back to writing comedy - and see it performed.

He won't be forgotten though for how staunchly he stood up for women, gay people and kids.

I'm not sure any of that really matters in the context of this discussion.

Suppose you are an average guy who reads the paper and maybe watches the news, and are broadly in favour of equality of the sexes and the social changes towards that in the 20th century. Maybe you are a little stuck in the past too, you still talk about beef being raised in slash and burned rain forests.

You've also been very much taught that as a man, you should probably keep pretty quiet about women's issues, or issues about groups you don't belong to, except maybe to nod your head and be an ally.

As far as trans issues go, maybe it seems a bit weird or doesn't make sense, but it's not like all women, or even 90% of them, all seem on the same page. They are really divided, and some of the biggest activists are saying this is ok and does make sense.

You would have to be pretty ballsy to stick your neck out on it and declare a position or get immersed in it. I don't think it's irrelevant that many who do, do so because they have kids or something who get sucked into it, and they feel they need to step in and protect those people under their care.

I know - he quite literally lost everything- cancelled so no more jobs, wife / family etc. Poor guy. Hope he does get some credit when the tide fully turns.

Glinner's time is coming. As he himself says - he has changed, so some people who were put off by his manner are now more willing to engage with him. Hence Andrew Neil unblocking him, etc.

I hope that Glinner can regain lost ground.

There have been a lot of men speaking about this for years though. Glinner is the obvious one. But Joe Rogan has been talking about it for 8 years. Jesse Singal, Colin Wright, Brett Weinstein, Gad Saad, Ricky Gervais, Francis Foster, Konstantin Kisin, Jordan Peterson, Matt Walsh. It's been a couple of years now since Dave Chappelle declared himself 'team terf.' I think it's fair to assume that most of the Kiwi Farm users are men, and Josh Moon really has been fighting tooth and nail in the last year to keep his site up. Plenty of men in real life too. One of my brothers was aware of how fucking stupid and unsafe this had become back when I was still naively being kind.

The biggest thing that has happened in the last year has honestly been the change of culture on Twitter. Of course men like Richard Dawkins and Robert Winston realising how stupid it's gotten and speaking up will peak a LOT of people. Because they are two of the most well known and preeminent biologists in the world. But Dawkins has very much stated that it was Kathleen Stock's work that made him speak out. And he is helping to bring women like Helen Joyce into the awareness of his fans who may not have heard of her. But one of the biggest things that's driving the sudden breakthroughs, is the more open ability to debate on twitter. Most people are terfs, even if they don't know it yet. And the new culture on twitter is helping them to know it.

Agreed. Also, Stonewall massively overreaching, and Mermaids hitting the headlines. A lot of people were all #bekind and #nodebate until they started to realise what was being done

One of my brothers was aware of how fucking stupid and unsafe this had become back when I was still naively being kind.

This resonates and reminds me of my late FIL back in the early 2000's. A Lifelong Labour man, a socialist who having done very well in life remained so. He would be raging at the tv and swearing away shouting "Miss Blair and Miss Brown" and despairing of the new Labour Party and the new gender act. We thought he was a dinosaur and mean to the marginalised confused tiny group of transsexuals. I remember thinking how can he be so compassionate in all matters bar this. How right he was. I'm glad he's resting in peace.

Most people are terfs, even if they don't know it yet. And the new culture on twitter is helping them to know it.

I think the case of Kirsty Allsopp is a good indication of how far we have come. One of her latest tweets is saying something like “there’s a debate to be had over sports and spaces and children undergoing irreversible treatment but we need to debate compassionately” and loads of TRAs are thanking her for standing up for them. The fact she is not being called out as a TERF shows how far we have shifted the narrative because if she’d talked about debating these issues even a couple of years ago she’d have been receiving rape threats by now.

Oh god, Kirstie Allsopp 🙄 A latecomer to the show, who is busy telling women to be "compassionate".

Oh god, Kirstie Allsopp 🙄 A latecomer to the show, who is busy telling women to be "compassionate".

I don't understand why anyone registers what Kirstie Allsopp thinks about feminism?

It strikes me as comparable to caring what Peter Andre thinks about astrophysics.