Janice Turner on Labour u-turn

[southbiscay]

Is it safe for women to trust Labour again?

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b5a6df40-2d70-11ee-aede-28bc53acbdb8?shareToken=463658bee75ab918efe6b0320e42aad3

I think the exact quote was “shrill arguments”.

But we all know that a male politician would never use the term “shrill arguments” against a male political opponent.

Almost as bad as the male TUC activist on the ITV news in a 50s style apron and pinny with breast pump tantalisingly soft focus alongside the washed dishes, lol.

Now that's as hardcore genderised as watching Bridgette in a fetching red dress.

Yes, absolutely. I don't think Labour can be trusted at all on women's rights. As for Wes Streeting and Lisa Nandy words fail me, scary. I voted for Lisa in the leadership election and feel so let down. I can't see me believing anything they say on women's rights. Two in our household definitely not voting Labour who did last time.

No political party have covered themselves with glory on this issue. I don’t think any of them are likely to. You only have to consider how far things have got under the current government.

But this is enough for me to vote Labour again as this is where my political beliefs most closely align.

Doesn’t mean I’ll ever be an ardent Labour supporter or god forbid trust a politician. As per the article though I’m not sure how much Labour cares for GC votes .. they’ve just realised their stance was indefensible. Took them long enough.

I think there will be those who can no longer support Labour because of their idiocy/incompetence on this issue. Equally there will be those who would never support Labour & just use this as a stick to beat them with & deter voters no matter what.

This

this is actually what I look for in a political party, people who can be ‘unduly swayed’

very reassuring

oh and I also like intelligent politicians, like people who think that men can grow a cervix

I certainly won’t be voting tory but I can’t see me voting labour either, and I’m not sure what it would take to ‘unduly sway’ my vote….having said that I’m in a tory safe seat

Good point but the timing of this Labour u turn suggests this is very much political manoeuvring rather than a genuine change of heart. If they were interested in women's rights they would have been in conversation with people on BOTH sides of the issue way, way before this.

Look at this clip where she says she's perfectly ok with a male child rapist being out in a women's prison...

Put, not out!

This is good enough for me. I'm a lifelong Labour voter and this is the only thing I really disagree with their stance on. Get them in power or it won't matter what rubbish the NHS DEI teams publish - there won't be an NHS.

I can't speak for anyone else but I've never voted Tory in my life. I used to vote Labour at every election until the first Blair government was elected. I was very disappointed in them and started to vote election by election, using my council election vote for the Green Party, for example. I live in a rock solid Labour seat in a London borough that has hardly any non-Labour councillors. My vote counts for very little. I can still withhold it or give it to someone I think is a better candidate on the policies. My Labour MP is a good woman who as far as I can make out has worked hard for her constituents and her Shadow Minister role. When I went to see her with a group of other concerned women some years ago, she listened, but didn't promise anything, and one of the others present told us afterwards that her research team included several young people known to be very pro trans rights. I should think there are lots of MPs in a similar position. It doesn't speak well to their strength of character that they've been so unduly influenced by activists with no real experience of life that they've shut their ears to other points of view.

It’s not ideal, but it’s good start.

OK nobody has to vote Labour or for anyone else if they don’t want to. Don’t vote or spoil your paper. That’s absolutely fine.

But please don’t insult other posters intelligence by wanging on that Labour are ‘only doing this to win votes’. Of course they are. They’re not unique in that, though, so what is the point with that? It’s not a gotcha. Every time it is said I just wonder, why the fuck anyone thinks the Tories in government rowed back on introducing self ID to the whole UK? They easily could have done it, with their Parliamentary majority.

Because they gave the tiniest shit about women? Obviously not or that idea wouldn’t have gone to public consultation, the first stage of law making.

Or did they change their minds because women from across the political spectrum got together and protested and the Tories finally realised it was a giant stinking vote-loser for themselves? Maybe that emboldened some of the principled ones to stick their necks out a little further for women too. All of that is great and welcome.

At this point whether any individual MP is ideologically pure or not is not of much interest, we are so far behind the men’s rights campaigners on terms of getting around the political table.

Let’s get as many MPs as possible of all parties on side to simple principles of recognising biological sex matters, manifesto commitment to reform EqA and abolish GRA. I don’t think anyone is in any position to relax until that has happened.

It might be enough to stop me voting for the stories, because Sunak is fine words and no action. If he actually DID something I might have to hold my nose and vote for them.

It's not enough to persuade me either to vote Labour or make a contribution to election expenses. Lots of talk about votes but they've also lost membership and donations.

If Labour move further I might feel I can vote for them again but the answer to the question is no - women cant trust Labour yet.

Thank you for your shout out LoobiJee although I feel like I should underline that I am most definitely an adult sloth female, just in case there was any doubt about that.

Dinosaur bloke. As much understanding of biology as a dinosaur.

The thing is it's been going on too long. They might be reading the writing on the wall now, but fuck me, how could they ever have thought that incarcerated women should be housed with male rapists because that's what the rapists want??

How can you ever have got to that point, if you regard yourself suitable to run a country?

it was ages ago that they were all squirming about being unable to define a woman. How fucking long does it take? And they still don't appear to be up to speed with the misogyny, the whole issue just seems to be unfathomably unpopular to them.

That they are only slowly and blinkingly becoming aware of the swathes of men like Isla Bryson, and that Baker tosser encouraging men to hit women, does suggest an ideological position that they are struggling to shake.

Fortunately, one of the steps they have taken is to relax their stance on no debate.

Because that's all it takes.

What that will do to the individuals concerned, God only knows. They're not over being made to look like utter twats yet.

I think there are three possibilities:

1. Labour has had a genuine change of heart, understands the error of its ways, now fully supports women.
2. They haven't changed their minds at all, this is a cynical ploy to win votes and they will backtrack and introduce gender id once in government.
3. They have made a pragmatic decision to change policy, because they know that the Tories are using this issue to attack them, and it could therefore lose them votes. But once in power, they will stick to the policy because they have realised how unpopular self-id is.

I think we can safely rule out 1. But at the moment I think 3 is more likely than 2. The only thing that concerns me is that they win a landslide that ushers in a whole new generation of 20-something Labour MPs, who regard self-ID as a core issue.

👍😀

I originally typed out “her” but then felt I ought not make assumptions in writing and changed to their.

In this reply, I was going to end with “apologies for the misgendering” and a wink / laugh emoji, but thought better of that as well - too tricky to convey tone via emojis sometimes, especially humour.

Anyway, key point: your post was excellent.

It might be enough to stop me voting for the stories, because Sunak is fine words and no action. If he actually DID something I might have to hold my nose and vote for them.

This too.

If they're going to finally realise what wins votes, then logically, the race should begin. They're never going to please transactivists compromising even an iota. So they might as well go all in.

in fact, if it's going to be used as a political football, that's exactly what should happen.

The thing is it's been going on too long. They might be reading the writing on the wall now, but fuck me, how could they ever have thought that incarcerated women should be housed with male rapists because that's what the rapists want??

Yes. And Lisa Nandy's excuse (if it's true) that she was only doing what her young campaign team told her is the most feeble, pusillanimous and downright pathetic thing I've heard for a long time. How can you trust someone like that to serve in cabinet if she's not prepared to think for herself?

It makes me think that if you let this lot anywhere near power it's going to be a total shambles. But then, it's a total shambles already so what choice is there?

The shifting position seems to conclude that a GRC is the key, and it's going to be easier to get one.

It still shocks me that they haven't thought this through, though.

You're not allowed to ask to see one, for a start.

And how does that work with things like sport? A GRC is meaningless.

And do they really think it's going to be acceptable to TRAs for men to have to produce their GRC in toilets, changing rooms etc?

They've had sooo long to think about this. Yet I guarantee they still haven't.

I've been watching all this since it first kicked off, going on for a decade now. In all that time, there have always been committed, passionate, labour voting women desperate to believe that they can somehow get the party to listen and care, and grabbing with relief and hope on every little crumb that this might possibly happen. They are endlessly willing to wait, and trust, and work from the inside, with patience and commitment. Many, like Janice, (and Rosie Duffield and Joanna Cherry and JKR) are insightful and highly articulate with the ear of people at the top and a wide reach so they have been heard all this time, and have often paid heavily for having the courage to speak.

And now, five minutes from a general election, there's a few vague 'crumbs' where when the leader says 'adult human female' we all know by 'female' he means men and women who identify as female at the moment, and is merely hoping enough of the general public are ill informed enough that they'll trust him and be fooled enough to vote as he wants them to. And that they don't realise he's quite intentionally conning them until he's in power and it's too late.

Sadly, I rest my case.

It is difficult to believe, I agree.

How can anyone think that a stance so extreme, so dangerous and so detrimental to women being blamed on the influence of ignorant kids, is a positive thing to fess up about!

The question that needs to be asked, repeatedly, as loudly as possible,

what the actual fuck do you plan to do with all the women excluded from women's spaces and in fact ANY SPACE AT ALL so that male people with a GRC can use women's spaces?

Are you for a country where women who pay equal taxes, who are disabled, traumatised, victims of abuse and assault, of different faiths and cultures and beliefs are excluded from equal access to society?

Own it, or state now how you intend to prevent this happening to women.

Because this cowardly fudging around it shows the deep discomfort and the knowledge that this is wrong, they do not have the guts to openly stand in front of it and explain why a percentage of vulnerable and marginalised women must have nothing so that men can have more.

It would be easy to assume that the enormous noise from TRAs means they must outweigh women, but they make up such a tiny proportion of the electorate compared to women. But Labour needs young people’s votes much more than the Conservatives do and #BeKind is a big thing amongst the target university students. It is probably politically/electorally more painful for Labour to climb down over this than the Tories.