Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Janice Turner on Labour u-turn

315 replies

southbiscay · 28/07/2023 22:12

Is it safe for women to trust Labour again?

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b5a6df40-2d70-11ee-aede-28bc53acbdb8?shareToken=463658bee75ab918efe6b0320e42aad3

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
ResisterRex · 29/07/2023 13:52

There is more to come and it was the interim report:

cass.independent-review.uk/about-the-review/frequently-asked-questions/

"We are aiming to publish a final report by the end of 2023 and we will post all significant updates and changes on this website.
This can be a fast-moving issue and it is important that the Review is responsive and flexible. We have shared findings and early advice at different points throughout the Review and will continue to not wait until the full Review is completed before reporting any new developments.
In March we published an Interim reportt, which represented the Review’s work at that point and we have published Dr Cass’s letters to NHS Englandd; including her July 2022 letter, which set out the key components of a new regional service model. We also continue to post blogs and general updates on our website.
There are still a number of publications to come before the final report, specifically in regard to our research programme, findings from which are expected throughout 2023."

The questions section in both houses is sometimes worth checking. This was answered recently, for example:

questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-questions/detail/2023-07-13/hl9330

Q: To ask His Majesty's Government what discussions they have had with the Care Quality Commission regarding reports about its inquiry into the activities of the Gender Plus organisation, given the interim findings of the Cass Review and the use of puberty blockers and hormones for children and young people with gender identity issues.

A: The Department has regular discussions with the Care Quality Commission (CQC) about a variety of topics, including but not limited to issues regarding gender identity services.
As an independent regulator, it is for the CQC to determine whether a private organisation is carrying out a regulated activity and whether any investigation is warranted. It is a legal requirement to register with the CQC if a provider is carrying out regulated activities, and the CQC has the power to investigate whether providers are doing this.

Hepwo · 29/07/2023 13:56

ZeldaFighter · 29/07/2023 10:04

This is good enough for me. I'm a lifelong Labour voter and this is the only thing I really disagree with their stance on. Get them in power or it won't matter what rubbish the NHS DEI teams publish - there won't be an NHS.

Do you really believe that?

I can't really understand this sort of polemic.

It's pretty much unchangeable, all the routine and repetitive surgery etc has been outsourced over the past 30 years by the NHS leadership, and they move around the private and public delivery perfectly at ease with it.

The complex difficult loss making stuff can't be floated on the stock market or sold to private equity because it's only ever going to be loss making.

GP trusts have always been businesses. And doctors are the toughest negotiators out there on pay.

The leadership of the NHS is overwhelmingly left wing.

I can only think that left wing leadership in general do not take responsibility for their own work and it's outcomes.

mirax · 29/07/2023 13:58

May I ask where the Lisa Nandy back tracking has occurred? On social media or in a speech?

RealityFan · 29/07/2023 13:58

End of 2023? Well, it better not be delayed.
The GE is likely to be Sep or Oct 2024, so that leaves a tiny legislative window of opportunity for Sunak to set out his stall.
No to trans conversion ban or beefing up further of online hate speech laws.
Legislation as per EHRC advice on sex >>> gender.
Full transparency on trans materials in schools/protecting teachers and other pupils from obligation to address new genders of trans ID pupils.
Whatever else Cass recommends.

Say that's what they'll do and enact for another Tory term. And challenge Labour to match it.

BettyFilous · 29/07/2023 14:06

Thanks @ResisterRex for pulling out the Cass detail for the thread.

ResisterRex · 29/07/2023 14:08

NP Betty. I do sometimes check that Parliament page in case an update is there. Pot luck really.

LoobiJee · 29/07/2023 15:39

Datun · 29/07/2023 10:38

The shifting position seems to conclude that a GRC is the key, and it's going to be easier to get one.

It still shocks me that they haven't thought this through, though.

You're not allowed to ask to see one, for a start.

And how does that work with things like sport? A GRC is meaningless.

And do they really think it's going to be acceptable to TRAs for men to have to produce their GRC in toilets, changing rooms etc?

They've had sooo long to think about this. Yet I guarantee they still haven't.

The blog post from the swim official linked to on another thread gives the lie to the myth that a GRC makes any difference.

That person started cross-dressing full-time at home during lockdown, and then after two weeks decided to “transition”. So the absolute earliest date of that decision was end March 2020. By 17 July 2021 according to the blogpost that swimmer was about to cross “the hallowed portals” (sic) of the female changing room against the wishes of one of the female club members. It doesn’t seem at all plausible that an individual would be able to complete the GRC process over a period of 15 months during lockdown. So this was a legal male accessing female facilities on demand. If it is possible to obtain a GRC in 15 months during lockdown then the claims that it is an onerous and time consuming process are completely false.

MavisMcMinty · 29/07/2023 15:49

RealityFan · 29/07/2023 13:43

I'm not sure there's more to come. Only more bad news, a recent UnHerd piece says the clinicians at the Tavistock are carrying on as they always have, the herd mentality is so unremitting with no self reflection.

Polly Carmichael is still head of GIDS,isn’t she? Despite it all? Despite numerous critical reports and a whole book about her disturbing little empire?

LoobiJee · 29/07/2023 15:55

flyingbuttress43 · 29/07/2023 12:29

Full page feature by Suzamme Moore. Daily Telegraph today.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/07/29/sir-keir-starmer-labour-trans-policy-duffield-russell-moyle/

Do I trust Labour on this issue. Emphatically No.

There’s some really crucial intelligence provided by Suzanne in that article.

Firstly, behind the scenes, the TRAs in the party have been given assurances.

“But yesterday, Russell-Moyle told me that he, for one, is broadly on board. “There are parts of how the leadership’s announcement has been interpreted that I think goes further than the compromise,” he says. “I have expressed that to them.”

Second, the TRAs in the party are going to re-brand self-ID as ‘de-medicalisation’, and campaign for the GRC process to be the same as getting the back of your new passport photo signed before you send off the passport application.

Self-ID is a poor policy name for demedicalisation, which is what I support. I want to make it clear that demedicalisation is vital.” He adds: ‘We can achieve this through a process of external verification and can be achieved with other non medical professionals (social workers, councillors etc).”

Third, they are sticking to their women do not have an automatic right to single-sex female-only spaces, facilities and services policy, as they are sticking to their case-by-case basis position/ campaign.

Crucially, Russell-Moyle tells me, “I am also pleased that we will keep the current system of sex and gender reassignment-protected characteristics in the Equality Act, giving flexibility for people to make exclusions based on biological sex, legal sex and gender reassignment on a case by case basis using the legal principle ‘proportionate means for a legitimate aim’.”

RealityFan · 29/07/2023 15:56

I see this as societal malaise, likely aggravated by our atomised lives on social media.

GIDS/Tavistock. But also Grenfell. Windrush Scandal. Even this infected blood scandal. Various grooming scandals. The catalogue of errors that led to the Manchester Arena bombing. The teacher in Batley still under police guard/the kid victimised for scuffed Koran.

Nothing really grabs the national Psyche anymore. Drives us as people to action. Maybe Brexit only.

Social media. The culture war. Taking sides.

I read the Cass interim report, and unfolding Mermaids scandal and counted down to what I thought would be action.

3...2...1...nada.

Even now I'm unsure if the majority have heard of Mermaids, the Tavistock scandal. I don't think they have.

LoobiJee · 29/07/2023 15:58

And while the TRAs seem to have had behind the scenes reassurances, no one seems to have done Rosie Duffield the courtesy of discussing it with her.

Meanwhile, Rosie Duffield – who many women say needs an apology from Starmer before Labour will gain their vote – says: “I was not consulted on this policy, I just read it in the papers like everyone else. Is this really how we do it?” Starmer hasn’t met her since Sept 2021.

LoobiJee · 29/07/2023 16:02

Quote from Ben Bradshaw.

I’m delighted we are defending the Equality Act, when the Tories are proposing to strip trans people of their protections under the Act, and that we are recommitting to modernising the gender reassignment process, which currently is dehumanising and overly bureaucratic,” he says. “But I am concerned that we appear to be retreating somewhat from our commitment to demedicalise the process.”

Quote from Dawn Butler

Dawn Butler has tweeted “A few people have asked me and to confirm, my position on the trans issue has not changed since 2020. I will be speaking to Anneliese Dodds and Keir Starmer to seek clarification on any changes to Labour 2020 position. We must not fall into the trap set by the Tories.”

Anneliese Dodds

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/anneliese-dodds/

RealityFan · 29/07/2023 16:17

Prepare for a long period of drawn out grey was. Elite sport and prisons protected from trans entry. But ructions in amateur sport/parkruns, clubs. Maybe some moderate resolution in other single sex spaces like changing rooms and refuges. Even toilets may still be a battleground.
"Hey you, where's you're GRC?"
"You have no right to demand that"
Are we gonna get JSO type scenarios where women and men will feel emboldened to eject men from spaces? I think so.

But the days of expecting individuals to self police and do the right thing for society are behind us. Women will never be allowed to feel good or safe.

Maybe a decade of this will end up in society finding it's way again, but I fear not.

And in society, the narrative will swing back to the GC realism position, but so many elites and managerial class leftists will never recant, or if they do, it'll be the lame way Nandy has done.

So much policy dialog will be all to make trans lives easier, women must continually budge up. The equivalent of transpreading, but at policy level. It'll be slow attrition.

Whether there'll be any real apologies or re prioritising of girls and women no. So plenty of chat on the horrors of Andrew Tate style misogyny etc, nothing about the shift of men to redefine women.

Will it feel like a victory? I really don't know, I'm not a woman. Civil wars never end well for either side.

SunnyEgg · 29/07/2023 16:18

LoobiJee · 29/07/2023 16:02

Quote from Ben Bradshaw.

I’m delighted we are defending the Equality Act, when the Tories are proposing to strip trans people of their protections under the Act, and that we are recommitting to modernising the gender reassignment process, which currently is dehumanising and overly bureaucratic,” he says. “But I am concerned that we appear to be retreating somewhat from our commitment to demedicalise the process.”

Quote from Dawn Butler

Dawn Butler has tweeted “A few people have asked me and to confirm, my position on the trans issue has not changed since 2020. I will be speaking to Anneliese Dodds and Keir Starmer to seek clarification on any changes to Labour 2020 position. We must not fall into the trap set by the Tories.”

Interesting. They can get done infighting going on.

Slothtoes · 29/07/2023 16:20

Excellent point LoobiJee it can’t be both things at once.
And while I’m delighted that Labour are saying single sex spaces matter, and no to self ID, and that some of their GC MPs are publicly out and that it’s the end of Labour’s #nodebate years.. Labour really do need to be pressured on the GRC reforms that they are proposing. They're awful.

They want a diagnosis of gender dysphoria from only one doctor not two, and the panel that grants the certificate to be replaced by a single registrar. That isn’t a serious process for an incredibly serious legal change.

Getting a GRC isn’t hard now. Why should it be easier? Why is it so ridiculously cheap?
Why did the Tories reduce the admin charge to £5? Are they trying to incentivise the take up?

It is also shameful that immigrants who typically support the economy and take less from public services than they put back in taxes paid here, are charged many thousands by the home office in the UK to process their forms.

That cost would imply that some wages clearly need to be charged to cover to government administrators to process applicant paperwork. In which case the Tories’ big GRC reform that was to charge £5 to process a GRC is a complete joke. Either convening a panel and paying two doctors to sign forms is only costing £5 or there are some seriously confused government ministers in charge of this. What do Labour say..?

SunnyEgg · 29/07/2023 16:20

Some..

RebelliousCow · 29/07/2023 16:27

LoobiJee · 29/07/2023 15:58

And while the TRAs seem to have had behind the scenes reassurances, no one seems to have done Rosie Duffield the courtesy of discussing it with her.

Meanwhile, Rosie Duffield – who many women say needs an apology from Starmer before Labour will gain their vote – says: “I was not consulted on this policy, I just read it in the papers like everyone else. Is this really how we do it?” Starmer hasn’t met her since Sept 2021.

It was obvious that the reason for the absensce of comment from the most prominent TRA activists ( Whittome, Nandy, Bradshaw, Cashman etc) is down to the fact they have been given re-assurances that they will still, in effect, get what they want - which is effectvely no change - apart from making far easier for peopel to GRCs.

It is all smoke and mirrors.

LoobiJee · 29/07/2023 16:30

Why did the Tories reduce the admin charge to £5?

I think that was to stop TRAs saying the GRC process was lengthy, burdensome, intrusive and costly. Once the Tories had made it so cheap, they were able to bat away the other arguments for self-ID by saying the process offers an important safeguard for society and the applicants.

ArabeIIaScott · 29/07/2023 16:31

Rightsraptor · 28/07/2023 22:31

Lisa Nandy is now claiming she'd been 'unduly swayed' by young trans activists in her team.

What a pathetic excuse. Anyone with an ounce of intelligence or even the ability to read should have very quickly seen what they were up to and given them the boot.

That really won't wash, Lisa.

Is she, aye?

So she is open to being 'unduly swayed' by anyone talking shite with conviction? Doesnt' really inspire confidence.

LoobiJee · 29/07/2023 16:36

RebelliousCow · 29/07/2023 16:27

It was obvious that the reason for the absensce of comment from the most prominent TRA activists ( Whittome, Nandy, Bradshaw, Cashman etc) is down to the fact they have been given re-assurances that they will still, in effect, get what they want - which is effectvely no change - apart from making far easier for peopel to GRCs.

It is all smoke and mirrors.

Indeed, but it’s opened up the topic for discussion and public scrutiny, in the run up to an election and, as slothtoes said in her post this morning, now is the time to capitalise on that by pressing them on the obvious inconsistencies and obfuscations.

Ourladycheesusedatum · 29/07/2023 16:40

PronounssheRa · 29/07/2023 07:48

Lisa Nandys 'I was unduly influenced by young activists' excuse reflects terribly on her.

Was she unable to think for herself? Does she not have the courage of her own convictions? What else could she be unduly influenced on?

This wasn't a minor issue, she wanted rapists placed in women's prisons. She signed that awful pledge. I think this will haunt the rest of her political career.

Not nrtft yet, but has starmer come up with any reason why he too could not see or state the bloody obvious?
Presumably he too was unduly influenced by something or someone?
Which then begs the question, if he ever makes it as leader of the country, can we trust that he wont be unduly influenced into leading us into something terrible?
I realise we do have to let people walk over that rainbow bridge back to sanity and biology, but do we just ignore completely how influenced they were and how stupid they were and are they really leader material?

Agree nandy should just quit politics now, but to my mind so should half or more of the current labour lot.

Oh and to add, I want the gra gone. Whichever party gets closest to repealing that act is the one I will vote for.

I think any moves I make, emails, cards in person, will all be to repeal the gra.

ArabeIIaScott · 29/07/2023 16:45

Does anyone know the source for Nandy 'rowing back'?

The last articles I can find are her saying 13 year olds should be taken seriously if they want to change gender.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/01/19/labours-lisa-nandy-suggests-13-year-olds-should-able-change/

And a reminder that she recognised it was to expel women over their views, but decided to back that anyway:

'The pledge calls on candidates in the Labour leadership race to back the expulsion of party members who hold “bigoted, transphobic views”.
It also describes Woman’s Place UK, a group that backs biological sex to be acknowledged as part of maintaining women’s rights, as a “trans-exclusionist hate group”.
Speaking on Sky News’s Sophy Ridge on Sunday programme, Nandy said the call for those who support organisations such as Woman’s Place to be kicked out of the party had given her pause before signing the pledge.
“I have to say, that was the part of the pledge that gave me pause for thought about whether to sign it,” said Nandy. “I decided to sign it in the end because I think that the sentiment of the pledge about protecting trans rights and about accepting that trans men are men and trans women are women is really important'

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/23/lisa-nandy-wording-trans-rights-pledge-labour-leadership

And arguing for males in women's sports:

Labour’s Lisa Nandy suggests 13-year-olds should be 'taken seriously' if they want to change gender

The Wigan MP's comments come just days after Sir Keir Starmer said 16 was too young to legally transition and reveal a split in the party

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/01/19/labours-lisa-nandy-suggests-13-year-olds-should-able-change

HarrietJet · 29/07/2023 16:46

LoobiJee · 29/07/2023 16:30

Why did the Tories reduce the admin charge to £5?

I think that was to stop TRAs saying the GRC process was lengthy, burdensome, intrusive and costly. Once the Tories had made it so cheap, they were able to bat away the other arguments for self-ID by saying the process offers an important safeguard for society and the applicants.

Why then reduce the amount of medical intervention from two doctors to one, and reduce the panel size to a single person?

ArabeIIaScott · 29/07/2023 16:50

So that they can say that they've made it easier.

They are still desperately trying to have their cake and eat it.

LoobiJee · 29/07/2023 17:03

HarrietJet · 29/07/2023 16:46

Why then reduce the amount of medical intervention from two doctors to one, and reduce the panel size to a single person?

Because Labour are sticking to their self-ID policy but re-branding it as de-medicalisation. Presumably.