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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Janice Turner on Labour u-turn

315 replies

southbiscay · 28/07/2023 22:12

Is it safe for women to trust Labour again?

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b5a6df40-2d70-11ee-aede-28bc53acbdb8?shareToken=463658bee75ab918efe6b0320e42aad3

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ArabeIIaScott · 31/07/2023 17:12

That's amazing. Thank you, mrshoho.

mrshoho · 31/07/2023 18:05

Yes it will be an amazing if moment in history when it does pass. It still needs to be signed by at least 10 members and then put before the house. But in all honesty what politician is going to reject it? How could they defend not legislating to sort out the sorry mess they are currently in? Ireland was hoodwinked and unfortunately sleep walked into the original gender recognition bill.

It will also be bittersweet as the time and expense that fighting the gender ideology war is just unbelievable. Doctors, Lawyers, Academics, ordinary women and men all devoting their lives to this crucial cause. Strange times.

Slothtoes · 31/07/2023 18:45

That’s really a brilliant development Mrshoho well done to everyone who worked on that

anyolddinosaur · 31/07/2023 18:59

OH said today "I thought Labour had gone back on self ID" - and got an earful about why they havent really. So Labour are right to think they have fooled a few people, but it doesnt hold up as soon as anyone explains exactly what they have - and haven't- done. Sorry Kier, Kelly Jay will still make mincemeat of you on this.

Usedtolikefood · 31/07/2023 19:02

anyolddinosaur · 31/07/2023 18:59

OH said today "I thought Labour had gone back on self ID" - and got an earful about why they havent really. So Labour are right to think they have fooled a few people, but it doesnt hold up as soon as anyone explains exactly what they have - and haven't- done. Sorry Kier, Kelly Jay will still make mincemeat of you on this.

I guess the question has just changed from ‘what is a woman?’ To ‘what is a female?’ Go on Keir, do tell us.

Hepwo · 31/07/2023 19:34

Yes, the excitement when a Labour politician said female and biological in the Guardian seems to have caused a lot of people to gloss over the rest.

Helen Belcher was at the EHRC three months ago belching away about being biological and female.

MmePoppySeedDefage · 31/07/2023 21:50

anyolddinosaur · 31/07/2023 18:59

OH said today "I thought Labour had gone back on self ID" - and got an earful about why they havent really. So Labour are right to think they have fooled a few people, but it doesnt hold up as soon as anyone explains exactly what they have - and haven't- done. Sorry Kier, Kelly Jay will still make mincemeat of you on this.

Yeah: my husband said the same, and got the same response from me!

HarrietJet · 01/08/2023 09:49

Hepwo · 31/07/2023 19:34

Yes, the excitement when a Labour politician said female and biological in the Guardian seems to have caused a lot of people to gloss over the rest.

Helen Belcher was at the EHRC three months ago belching away about being biological and female.

Sorry, a trans woman is now attempting to have us believe they're a biological woman?!

Froodwithatowel · 01/08/2023 09:55

HarrietJet · 01/08/2023 09:49

Sorry, a trans woman is now attempting to have us believe they're a biological woman?!

Yes. This is what happens when everyone is kind, and accepting, and believes that the other person is reasonable and has the capacity to stay within the social contract, and will not push your kindness or the enabling to a point where it becomes impossible.

It's called 'forced to the discourtesy'.

And sadly because of boundaries having been relaxed and kind, we are now at the stage of having to say, loudly and clearly, 'no you are not. You are not a biological woman, and this is not going to happen'.

Arguably, it would have been a great deal kinder to have done this at a much earlier point. The reality is that however a male person identifies, they cannot change sex and there are limits to how far they can take their transition due to the needs of real and actual women.

That many of these male people do not care what happens to real and actual women and feel that those women don't matter as they do? Is another indicator of need for real and strong boundaries and limits on what transition means in reality. It may be very difficult and distressing to hear that reality exists, but the fact is that it does, and it is not ok to permit the trampling of other people's rights, access and equality to enable the pretense and illusion to last just a little bit longer.

Usedtolikefood · 01/08/2023 10:09

HarrietJet · 01/08/2023 09:49

Sorry, a trans woman is now attempting to have us believe they're a biological woman?!

Yes I think the logic is ‘ I am a woman , women are biologically female so therefore I am biologically female’

It’s not that much of a surprise. If you think TW should be in women’s sport, and lesbians should date TW, that assumes you think that TW have female bodies.

HarrietJet · 01/08/2023 10:09

Oh dear God. 🤯

ArabeIIaScott · 01/08/2023 10:12

Several transwomen have used this 'I'm biological, I'm now legally female, therefore I'm a biological female' line before.

The evidence given by using your own ears and eyes kind of spoils the effect, though, tbh.

Froodwithatowel · 01/08/2023 10:37

It all reminds me of the kicking off years ago when TW realised that if they transitioned lesbian women who had previously wanted nothing to do with them would sit with them, be lovely and supportive, listen, enjoy coffee or a drink with them in the group, it was great.

And then came the barrier, that they would not take the next step of taking them home, removing knickers and DTD. How did that TW writer put it again? 'They resist the penis'.

There is no reciprocal care or consideration. No limits or boundaries. You take one step and then the arguments start because you say 'no, I'm not comfortable to take the next step'. And they say 'but you took one so get on with all the others!'.

This isn't a TQ+ thing; it's a male behaviour with women thing.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 01/08/2023 10:42

Usedtolikefood · 01/08/2023 10:09

Yes I think the logic is ‘ I am a woman , women are biologically female so therefore I am biologically female’

It’s not that much of a surprise. If you think TW should be in women’s sport, and lesbians should date TW, that assumes you think that TW have female bodies.

and that's why we need to get back to 'no, actually, trying to pretend that you're a member of the opposite sex isn't normal and it is a mental health condition'

it's OK for grown ups to live in a fantasy if that's what they wish (although hardly healthy), and just because they're wrong and irrational it doesn't mean we should be intentionally rude, or prevent them from doing things they want to do that don't affect others

but it does mean institutions shouldn't pretend to agree with them. because they're wrong. and it does mean society shouldn't indulge them when their behaviour affects others

Helleofabore · 01/08/2023 11:08

HarrietJet · 01/08/2023 09:49

Sorry, a trans woman is now attempting to have us believe they're a biological woman?!

This has been happening for a long while. It is the argument that Ivy/McKinnon used to convince panels that males should be included in female cycling races. That people used pronouns which showed that all those using pronouns fully believed that these males were women. And if they were considered 'women' then logic dictated that they were considered 'female'. The sporting policy panel (can't remember which one) agreed.

It was when I saw this happening, I realised that I should never use preferred pronouns over correct sex pronouns or third person pronouns again.

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