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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Janice Turner on Labour u-turn

315 replies

southbiscay · 28/07/2023 22:12

Is it safe for women to trust Labour again?

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b5a6df40-2d70-11ee-aede-28bc53acbdb8?shareToken=463658bee75ab918efe6b0320e42aad3

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
Nappyvalley15 · 30/07/2023 09:20

What I am unsure about is whether we are supposed to believe he now thinks differently about biology (maybe found the right page in the GCSE textbook) or if he is saying they had to change their policy because it was unpopular with the public but he still believes some men can have a cervix. Either way I still fear the LP in power will usher in self-id by the back door and not properly protect single sex spaces.

I do agree with the 'golden bridge' etc and that we can now use this as a conversation opener with the LP and get them to be clearer on their plans. However I would feel so much better if there was a proper apology for how they have treated GC MPs and members and some commitments to more 'free speech' on gender issues.

bellinisurge · 30/07/2023 09:25

We need a Neil Kinnock moment at the Labour Party conference when he talks them out the Party or it'll be just words. For younger viewers, Neil Kinnock as leader laid into Momentum's predecessor Militant. And it burned brightly. Labour still had a way to go to restore trust back then but it was a Big Moment.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 30/07/2023 09:31

Boiledeggandtoast · 30/07/2023 08:25

Great article from Shonagh Dillon. A good read for a Sunday morning.

RebelliousCow · 30/07/2023 09:31

The difference is that Militant they didn't have 'members' on the front bench or in the House of Lords ( Michael Cashman)

Froodwithatowel · 30/07/2023 09:34

I got the measure of Starmer the day he did the 'web chat' on MN. (Which is still around if anyone wants to read.)

I'd have honestly preferred any of the full on TWAW and women don't need rights nutjob other candidates. At least they were honest about what they thought and wanted to achieve in power, and intended to be themselves with actual integrity.

MmePoppySeedDefage · 30/07/2023 09:35

That Shonagh Dillon article says it all, really. I'm not holding my breath.

Codlingmoths · 30/07/2023 09:37

RufustheFactualReindeer · 29/07/2023 23:49

no one is crucifying anyone

and i lose patience with the whole ‘be nice or people will go back to thinking completely stupid things just to spite you’ schtick

I’d call it more play the ball, not the man. This board is pretty quick to laugh at the spectacle of someone tra saying something actually sensible and being piled on for days, but the effect is anyone is terrified to question or recant. I’d say let’s not help the TRAs out here.

Froodwithatowel · 30/07/2023 09:38

MrsOvertonsWindow · 30/07/2023 09:31

Great article from Shonagh Dillon. A good read for a Sunday morning.

Yes, good article, thank you for sharing.

'gleefully ignoring and condescending to women' absolutely nails the vibe of his MN 'web chat' (of pre written SPAD responses cut and paste to pre selected questions, carefully saying nothing whatsoever).

Hepwo · 30/07/2023 09:46

Boiledeggandtoast · 30/07/2023 08:25

What is this u turn?

All that has happened is that he's said the words adult human female and clarified that you can buy an adult human female certificate from a doctor.

SunnyEgg · 30/07/2023 09:49

Hepwo · 30/07/2023 09:46

What is this u turn?

All that has happened is that he's said the words adult human female and clarified that you can buy an adult human female certificate from a doctor.

Exactly

Many mners do a better job at cutting through and speaking plainly. Why is it so hard?

RealityFan · 30/07/2023 09:59

RebelliousCow · 30/07/2023 09:31

The difference is that Militant they didn't have 'members' on the front bench or in the House of Lords ( Michael Cashman)

Kinnock took Militant down, right on their patch...Kinnock's barnstorming speech at conference in the lion's den ie Liverpool. Right in Derek Hatton's face.

Starmer couldn't even contemplate doing this over the genderists in his party, so deep runs the managerial Left mantra. Just look at recent Unite union declarations, as Stonewall as Stonewall gets.

The Q we all have to consider...if like me you're considering voting Labour, but absolutely sensitive to how they've mishandled the genderwoo over the last few years, you've got to consider, how does Starmer and Streeting (now the defacto deputy, not Rayner, and likely next leader) negotiate their evolved policy thru 4-5 years of Labour being in power...fallouts with MPs and activists, raging rows with unions, public flare ups at conference, daggers drawn with Stonewall.

We have to consider...is Starmer/Streeting genuine in this policy shift? Whether an evolution to this point, or a seismic shift after SNP/Bryson, or simply real politik re opinion polls?

If they are genuine, will they fight for at very least a realistic position? Ie moving further and further away from Self ID? Indeed making the requirements for a GRC tougher and tougher? In other words, triangulating back to the situation we have today?

Will Starmer's tortoise temperament mean that once in power he'll be arguing from a total position of strength, and his natural risk averse and small c conservative attitudes will prevail?

Or worst case scenario, Starmer/Streeting are lying barefaced to us, to swing enough female votes to get power, and then they tack 180 to Self ID/wholesale trans conversion ban, and move in the ways the SNP wanted, and Vox/Podemos in Spain tried to.

As someone proud to have taken the GC course, at some detriment to my career, and who takes my politics and voting very seriously indeed, I have never taken the kind of punt I might do in 2024.

Do I inherently trust Starmer/Streeting on this change back to reality? Am I confident they will shore this up once in power, especially if they have a large majority, to face down internal Left pressure?

On everything else, there's no gap between this long term Tory voter and now wanting Starmer in power. On gender, until recently there's no way I could ever vote Labour.

Things feel different, do I take a punt that could so backfire? Currently this is the sole remaining dissonance I have in my mind in the last decade of trans madness, the tide is turning in almost every area of public life. Will Labour follow the tide? Or con me and millions around the UK, and try to swim against the tide?

LoobiJee · 30/07/2023 10:01

Boiledeggandtoast · 30/07/2023 08:25

“The blatant misogyny of largely left-wing men has been displayed in all its glory in this debate in the UK. That behaviour won’t be forgotten easily. Women keep receipts.”

Spot on.

But she’s missed that, on self-ID, what Labour have ditched is the language, not the policy.

C8H10N4O2 · 30/07/2023 10:02

PriOn1 · 28/07/2023 22:53

Given it mentions Angela Rayner is still mired in transactivism and also that she has the potential to be the first female leader, I would be very wary. That said, Labour have never had a female leader, so it’s not as if they’re likely to elect one any time soon.

Harriet Harman turned into a decent enough politician, having been (with full hindsight) bizarrely swayed into supporting PIE. Lisa Nandy may well have been swayed by young Labour, or whoever. It’s pretty obvious that happened in the SNP, where young people were highly valued and thus the situation was ripe for infiltration.

Chalk and cheese really.

Harman was a human rights lawyer in her 20s at the time when the NCCL was campaigning for equality in the age of consent for gay and straight people. There was generally a debate about the actual appropriate age of consent.
PIE latched onto the latter wanting consent to be reduced to 10. They had support for this from a number of names in the press.

NCCL never recommended anything other than minimum age of 16 but the same for everyone. They separately did support the right of other people to speak (which is what PIE used). Harman wasn't even an MP at this point.

Nandy is in her 40s, a shadow minister experienced across several portfolios and 15 years in active party politics. She knows perfectly well that magic beans don't grow a cervix, she just doesn't care and I'd trust her as far as I could throw her into a tornado.

LoobiJee · 30/07/2023 10:06

Hepwo · 30/07/2023 09:46

What is this u turn?

All that has happened is that he's said the words adult human female and clarified that you can buy an adult human female certificate from a doctor.

All that has happened is that he's said the words adult human female and clarified that you can buy an adult human female certificate from a doctor.”

Nailed it.

Froodwithatowel · 30/07/2023 10:13

Hepwo · 30/07/2023 09:46

What is this u turn?

All that has happened is that he's said the words adult human female and clarified that you can buy an adult human female certificate from a doctor.

...mic drop.

JanesLittleGirl · 30/07/2023 10:36

Are we talking about the Starmer that stood for election as the leader of the Labour party as the continuity Corbyn candidate and is now seeking election as PM as the continuity Sunak candidate? The man is Groucho Marx without the comedy. 'Those are my principles and if you don't like them.... Well I have others.'

RealityFan · 30/07/2023 10:39

JanesLittleGirl · 30/07/2023 10:36

Are we talking about the Starmer that stood for election as the leader of the Labour party as the continuity Corbyn candidate and is now seeking election as PM as the continuity Sunak candidate? The man is Groucho Marx without the comedy. 'Those are my principles and if you don't like them.... Well I have others.'

Luckily there's no continuity Johnson candidate ("I had no idea cake meant a party") or continuity Truss ("I'd just like to crash the economy, thanks").

SorryAuntLydia · 30/07/2023 10:43

Floisme · 29/07/2023 11:53

Anyway to answer the op, no this hasn't won my trust. It has however won my attention and I recommend that they use it wisely.

100% this 👆🏼
As a former LP activist in a marginal seat, I am paying close attention to what they actually do.

OvaHere · 30/07/2023 10:45

I do agree with the 'golden bridge' etc and that we can now use this as a conversation opener with the LP and get them to be clearer on their plans. However I would feel so much better if there was a proper apology for how they have treated GC MPs and members and some commitments to more 'free speech' on gender issues.

We can probably look forward to a heartfelt apology centuries after we are all dead. That's usually how these things go.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-59894693

Claire Mitchell QC and Zoe Venditozzi of the Witches of Scotland campaign

Witch apology would 'send powerful signal'

A public apology to those accused of witchcraft in the past would send a powerful signal, campaigners say.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-59894693

OvaHere · 30/07/2023 10:46

Hepwo · 30/07/2023 09:46

What is this u turn?

All that has happened is that he's said the words adult human female and clarified that you can buy an adult human female certificate from a doctor.

Well yes!

OvaHere · 30/07/2023 10:51

Froodwithatowel · 30/07/2023 08:33

And that they either are quite intentionally trying to deceive and con the public into believing that they intend to protect women's rights, when actually they intend to protect men's ability to wreck those rights, with the plan that they'll be in power and it'll be too late when people realise they were cold-bloodedly conned for their vote -

or they honestly have so very little idea of what they're talking about that they haven't realised why what they're saying already does not and cannot ever work in reality.

I'm not sure which is worse.

It's worth remembering that we have been here before with Labour in 2019.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3749319-Labour-promises-to-keep-single-sex-exemptions

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3749325-Hang-on-Labour-manifesto-references-single-sex-exemptions

Hang on - Labour manifesto references single-sex exemptions | Mumsnet

Page 65 of Labour manifesto. “Ensure that the single-sex-based exemptions contained in the Equality Act 2010 are understood and fully enforced in se...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3749325-Hang-on-Labour-manifesto-references-single-sex-exemptions

viques · 30/07/2023 10:57

Floisme · 28/07/2023 22:42

Oh I still don't trust them Grin I'm deciding nothing until I've seen what happens at the conference and read their manifesto.

Me too, I believe Starmer’s lips moved during that statement, which as everyone knows is a foolproof guide to a politician being a politician and lying through their teeth . Define female Starmer.

Floisme · 30/07/2023 10:59

Ha! I'm probably on that thread OvaHere has linked saying, 'phew! so glad to see this - it means I can vote Labour now.'

And I did vote for them. And the way Labour has behaved since then is precisely why I'm exercising caution this time. I will listen but I won't be bounced into promising my vote until I've read the detail and watched how they behave under questions and scrutiny.

ArabeIIaScott · 30/07/2023 11:07

SunnyEgg · 30/07/2023 09:49

Exactly

Many mners do a better job at cutting through and speaking plainly. Why is it so hard?

Politicians, innit.

ArabeIIaScott · 30/07/2023 11:08

'Remember the dignity of your womanhood. Do not appeal, do not beg, do not grovel. Take courage, join hands, stand beside us, fight with us. It is our duty to make this world a better place for women'.

Christabel Pankhurst. (Thanks to the lovely ribbon seller who sent this note with a recent order.)

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