How can we prevent the trans issue from being a gift to the right wing?

[TheTERFnextDoor]

I'm really worried about the direction politics is taking, not only in the UK but globally. The right wing is on the rise almost everywhere for various reasons.

Sadly, the gender debate will undoubtedly be a gift to the right wing over the next few years. It's the Tories ace card at the next election; the left as they are at the moment can't win this debate.

What can we practically do to prevent this? I have tried speaking to my local Mp (Labour), and he basically told me to "be kind".

Genuinely, what are you talking about? Who in the UK is 'lobbying against women's sexual freedoms'? Or are you one of those posters who thinks that the US situation maps onto the UK? Because it doesn't.

Exactly @nothingcomestonothing No political party in the UK is campaigning to restrict abortion or access to contraception.

there are no human rights that trans people don’t have in the UK

the USA and the uk are very very different and it’s deeply tedious to have to keep explaining this

Remember, it's the woman/wife who's being small minded and prejudicial in refusing to accept the man/husband. All they want is understanding and complicity.

And Labour will ensure that is enshrined in law.

What clown world do the left exist in?

And Dodds say that bad faith actors exist in equal measure on both sides.

Brave new world, alright. Presided over by moral cowards.

I am GC.

I believe we have a Conservative Government and it is under this Conservatives that
1 we are seeing men in women's prisons,
2.the NHS saying there can't have been a 'rape' as there were no men on the ward (there was a man ) etc etc.
3.men are being allowed to take part in women's sports etc etc.

I can't see how we can blame other parties ( who have no power) for what the Conservatives have done or have allowed in England when they do have all the power.

I am sure that Rosie Duffield Labour MP has not been expelled from the Labour Party for being GC.

I am also sure that I heard Wes Streeting Labour MP Shadow Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, say on TV in reply to Julia Hartley-Brewer's question, 'men have penises and women have vaginas here ends my biology lesson'. he has not been expelled.

Professor Lord Winston ( Labour peer) has said that no one can change sex multiple times. He has not been expelled either.

I know of no one who has been expelled from the LP for being GC. Plenty of women in the LP are GC and believe women have the right to their safe places ( unlike the Conservatives see above.)

Sheffield Central Labour did not select gender fluid Eddie Izzard to be their Labour Candidate at the next General Election but a local woman Cllr Abtisam Mohamed, a solicitor.

It certainly is not universally the position of Left Wing people that they are not CG.

Indeed the position of the very left wing Communist Party is resolutely GC. It's view is that this is a right wing ploy/argument to split the working class when we should be fighting the Conservatives from a class position.

We should be voting to get rid of the Conservatives who have ruined our country because of their appalling policies where no public service is working and working people have suffered repeated cuts to wages and salaries while eg corrupt companies have paid out record dividends while loading the same companies with huge debts.

Vote for whichever candidate LibDem or Labour or other, will oust the Conservative.

Sorry many posts since I last commented, but want to respond to these:

I remember you asking a similar question on a previous thread but I don't think I ever saw an answer.
That's because as i said we keep having these threads, and by and large they are pointless as it moves nothing forward. (sigh)

Sorry but you 100% choose which party you vote into power. There’s no one holding a gun to your head forcing you to vote one way or another. Stop making excuses and acting like you are not choosing where to use your voting power.
This remark is so patently stupid, but just to point out the group with power, is the party making the choices. It could be you like one set of choice more than an other, or you thinkg both are not worth voting for. But well done for showing why so many peope are turned off by the righteous left ie believe what I tell you and if you dont you are an idiot. (A real vote winner)

The conservatives actually started all this craziness with Maria Millers consultation on gender equality and proposals to move to self ID. For some reason posters always forget that.
Others have correct this misinformation and childish (taabloid) idea that individuals are roaming round parliament acting individually. Horrible as it might be to remember that the initial consultation came as a result of a recommendation by the Women and Equalities Committee who thought trans, and lesbian and gay people weren't getting enough rights. So they had no interest in what women might think. And it is to the credit of all the women's groups that sprung up, MN FWR, and some individuals who said hold on, following a trans positive agenda will impact on women. And guess what, the Government responded to the information they got via the consultation. Which by the way had a majority in favour of self id, but it was implied too many were automated responses. And yes believe it or not, people may support or oppose a law from slightly different perspectives. Feminist arguing for women's sex based rights will be doing so from a different perspective of a conservative who may have "traditional" ideas about women and protecting their dignaties. (This is why having endless 6th form proclomations being offered as political analysis just stops and considered arguements. Its all ya boo sucks.)

Instead of policies, they are pushing 'missions,' presumably so their ideas can't be stolen prior to a GE.
thanks for digging that out. However a mission is a clear statement we cant guarantee anything.

Came back to this thread to see how it was going, and whaddayaknow, we've reached the 'you're all fascists!' point. Already.

@MissAnneLister - are you in America?Their politics are quite different to UK politic. Their right is not our right. If anything, our right is closer to their left than our left is to their left.

And identity politics is really neither left nor right. Both sides have authoritarians.

I always find these memes floating through my head when we reach the 'you're all fascists!' point. No, we're not. And the person shouting it has lost the argument (has no argument to start with?).

Plenty of women in the LP are GC and believe women have the right to their safe places ( unlike the Conservatives see above.)

Leaving aside the 'safe places' instead of 'single-sex spaces' sleight of hand, it's nonsense to say nobody in the Conservative party is GC. There are GC men & women among the Tories. To give just one shining example, see Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne. TRA extremists have been reporting her to the HoL in their thousands, I believe, & yet she has not been dislodged. Her work for children & women is amazing. You won't find anyone more GC than Emma. And she's not the only one who knows which way is up.

I know of no one who has been expelled from the LP for being GC.

Which parralel universe are you living in. To name just one. The author of the Femicide Census, ceo of the nia project. Live long Labour member and said she wasn't welcome.

Same has happened to a number of women, many from generations of Labour voters. The want to be in Labour and Labour wont have them.

Which brings up one thing that Labour does seem to have a huge lead on over the tories. The way they vet members and parachute in centrally approved condidates. They are about as democratic as a politbureau.

Are you aware that although the MSM media makes out that Starmer has dealt with anti semitism in the Labour Party, that at the same time it has expelled (again long standing) Jewish members of the Labour party the position Starmer takes on Israel and the Occupied Territories.

It is really interesting that media isn't make as much fuss about this clear dictatorial management of the Labour Party which they would have done had say Corbyn done the same.

So on behalf of all the women who actively want to be part of the Labour party but have been cancelled by the Labour Party, please dont make out with is a woman friendly party.

Also the comments being leaked via the Guardian re women's sex based rights is grossly offensive and offers no comfort for those of us who see are rights being erased.

The Guardian so desperate to make Labour look goo have even published the two faced weasel words twice. Once as a "news" story and once as an "opinion".

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jul/24/labour-will-lead-on-reform-of-transgender-rights-and-we-wont-take-lectures-from-the-divisive-tories
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/24/labour-vows-to-modernise-simplify-and-reform-gender-recognition-act

And what are they offering. They are offering nothing for women, just saying our reactionary women make do with this (same sex exemptions which enshrines that trans women have more rights than biological women) is all you deserve.

Added to which they want to make it easier for those who want to transition.

ie even assuming they have listened to any gender critical campaign, they have not paid the slightest bit of interest, and done nothing to re-assure women that are rights are safe with them.

The remarkable thing, is that bar some complete dramatic change caused by some external events, the Tories will lose. So this should be a time for Labour to be bold.

But they aren't.

So for those who say we are moving to the right.

We are, but ironically that is because Labour has moved to the right, which gives more impetus for the Tories to move further right, rather than being a number of different factions of toryism.

When there is no left, how can it not be that politics in the UK is moving right?

Are you saying she's not really center right and is being disingenuous? I can't see why she would?

I agree with you absolutely that feminism isn't automatically left wing. I do think, though, that many left wing feminists have used the tactic of saying that other approaches to women's political positio, ones that maybe say things they aren't on board with, can't be feminist. It allows them to claim to speak for women while promoting the particular policies they want, even if many women disagree with them.

In any case, I've seen lots of people on FWR assume Joyce is left wing, and it seems to come out of the assumption that someone who says what she says could not be on the right. Because, as several posters have told us, Tories really just hate and want to oppress women, so they could never really care about these issues.

Would you like to detail just what you think those decisions would have been under a current Labour leadership?

what do you think would happen with the consultations that the Tories listened too ? Do you believe honestly that Labour would have listened and not continued with the bills the consultations related to?

I am genuinely interested in understanding what you think would have happened at the time with Labour in power. Considering Lisa Nandy was very clear that male people with trans identities are considered female for prison allocation.

That's what all political parties do. Your bar for what constituites 'fascism' is so ludicrously low that it incorporates everyone.

When you say " women's sexual freedoms" do you mean women who don't suport the rebranding of prostitution as 'sex work'?

If you're talking about Karen Ingala Smith, she wasn't expelled from the Labour party. She had already resigned twice.
She tried to rejoin and her membership request was rejected. So far as I understand, she has not tried to join since.

Eliza is quite correct in what she says.

A poster earlier asked about the SNP.

I cannot see any result for the SNP but a crushing defeat in the next election. Even putting aside the GRR issue, they have been abysmal at just about everything. Their ridiculous power sharing agreement with the Scottish Greens, who got a pitiful share of the votes (mostly under the list system) has meant that they have been led by the nose by a party who can't do the little they are given to do well. My local Aldi has a recycling unit, built at great expense for the implementation of the DRS and is now sitting unused for the foreseeable future. Even the absolute diehard SNP voters I know and who previously wouldn't hear a word said against NS have said they'll never vote for them again. Even the Scottish Converative leader has suggested that voters tactically vote for whichever party is most likely to unseat the SNP in their area.

And the Scottish Conservatives? For various reasons, they'll never get a majority here. We've not had a Tory government since the 1950's. I'm not a fan of their policies so wouldn't vote for them anyway but neither will I vote for Scottish Labour, who will three line whip their MP's.

The Scottish Lib Dems are basically Tory Lite - for the voter who wants to virtual signal their social conscious but is quite happy with their own lot, thank you very much. Also, with the dreadful A C-H as leader who is openly contemptuous of women.

The other minority parties will never get a majority so a bit of a wasted vote really.

My own line in the sand was the Forensic Medical Services Bill. If an MP voted against the six words amendment, I will never vote for them, no matter what party they stand for.

She tried to rejoin and her membership request was rejected.

So the Labour Party doesn't want women who are prepared to publicy criticise Labour's policy on women

Did you really think postind such word salad would make it better?

And makes the Labour Party look like they would'nt want any GC women as members.

Or you have to be a closet GC woman member.

So women know your place. You are morally obliged to vote for Labour but you aren't good enough to be a member.

https://mirandayardley.com/en/the-labour-party-is-no-longer-safe-place-for-women-venice-allan/

How the Labour Party treated Venice Allan.

Thanks for Venice Allen link - timely reminder. I think she was one of first. Or one of the first to go public. Some women felt it so personally they didn't talk about it.

https://thecritic.co.uk/the-labour-party-and-gender-critical-women/

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/oct/02/if-labour-is-truly-the-party-of-equality-it-wouldnt-shut-down-the-trans-debate

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labour-shut-down-the-antisemitism-debate-now-its-silencing-women-hd63g5xb7
also available on archive.ph

I mean, David Lammy says that women who think that women should have single sex spaces are 'rights hoarding dinosaurs'. That's what he said.

He's never retracted that statement.

It's hardly an inclusive environment for women, particularly those of us who are old enough to know that misogyny is live and kicking and that politics of gender identity is the biggest gift it was ever given.

What could be more against women's sexual freedoms than unilaterally imposing on them that they are now in a same sex marriage and are a lesbian because the man they married has now decided he is a woman.

Wow, thanks for that transcript! And Venice was quite right about Izzard standing on an all-women platform.

There's now a parallel discussion going on as someone started a thread based on the Labour policy position as published by the Guardian - not one but twice!

But on there someone posted a link to a tweet from Kemi Badenoch in response to the "new" policy:

Brazen stuff from@AnnelieseDodds

Labour have had YEARS to think of a new policy on gender recognition but they didn’t. Because it’s a very difficult area that requires bravery and being honest with people. It’s a lot easier to copy and paste our policy from 3 years ago…(1/5)

Today Dodds has announced the same policy, pretending it’s new thinking -we announced improvements to modernise 3 years ago and finished them last year! This is bare-faced hypocrisy from Labour…

How can anyone trust Labour on these issues? Today Dodds says a medical diagnosis is ‘important’. Yet here’s Keir Starmer two years ago announcing the complete opposite. Will he tell us why he has changed his mind? Will he admit that he was wrong? …(3/5)

Will Starmer and Labour apologise to all the men and women insulted by Labour MPs for this policy they now claim as their own? Will they work with us to do the right thing? Or keep shouting “culture wars” anytime ministers discuss these sensitive issues? …(4/5)

Make no mistake. Labour are embarrassed at being on the wrong side of history with numerous court cases on this issue and scandals like at the Tavistock. They want to fool people and hide what they really think. They want you to think they have changed. They haven’t. (5/5)

Here's the full thread https://twitter.com/KemiBadenoch/status/1683537279770566656

I cannot see any result for the SNP but a crushing defeat in the next election.

Who is going to defeat them?

I agree that enthusiasm for the SNP has plummeted, but where are those voters going to go?

Some will return to Labour, but not enough to form a government.

Alba is not going to come from nowhere to double figures, although they might get into the parliament.

The Tories and Lib Dems, as you say, are not in the running.

The Greens don't seem to have lost any support, despite most of the disaster being their fault.

Eh? Who is lobbying against womens sexual freedoms? Where?
Also who is campaigning against trans rights?
If you mean us, nope, we are campaigning for women, the cunty type.

From conversations with friends/family/colleagues, I think the votes will go to Labour, seen as the only viable 'progressive' alternative to the SNP. From what I've seen, there's far too much anger at the SNP for people to vote for them and too many issues with Alba etc for them to be seen as anything as a wasted vote.