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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How can we prevent the trans issue from being a gift to the right wing?

384 replies

TheTERFnextDoor · 23/07/2023 22:04

I'm really worried about the direction politics is taking, not only in the UK but globally. The right wing is on the rise almost everywhere for various reasons.

Sadly, the gender debate will undoubtedly be a gift to the right wing over the next few years. It's the Tories ace card at the next election; the left as they are at the moment can't win this debate.

What can we practically do to prevent this? I have tried speaking to my local Mp (Labour), and he basically told me to "be kind".

OP posts:
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ZeldaFighter · 23/07/2023 23:07

DojaPhat · 23/07/2023 22:31

No. It's actually for me very interesting to observe on this board in particular. The threads which would make for excellent study are those in which women appear to be contorting themselves into pretzels in order to justify voting for the tories, among others has been the comparison of similar US-based groups. It'd be too simplistic to describe GC feminism as a gateway to the far right, alt-right types - especially among a certain demographic of British women, but the parallels are striking. My friends and I discuss this all the time!

I don't find it interesting, I find it very sad. For you and your friends discussion, I have been a left wing, Labour voting, socially progressive, gay rights supporting, straight white woman all my life.

Last year, I read about Lia Thomas and how talented female swimmers were losing titles and records to a male-bodied person. My feminism is founded on supporting women to an equal and fair share in life. I am not really interested in supporting men who think they are women to ride roughshod over other women or open the door to male predators.

I don't want to be right wing and will probably still vote Labour. Ask your friends what I should do.

PatientZorro · 23/07/2023 23:12

It’s not really a gift to anyone so much as a giant steaming turd that Starmer is pretending he hasn’t left on the carpet.

DuchessOfPort · 23/07/2023 23:13

I consider myself a floating voter and centre-left. I voted Tory in the last election. Starmer and Sunak are level pegging for me and the GC thing is one of my biggest issues. If Starmer could be normal and say that women’s rights are safe, trans rights are very important but don’t trump those of women, then I can vote for him. But at the moment, the conservatives are more my vibe on this aspect of women’s rights. Labour are more my vibe on other things but I don’t want a wealth tax AND be told I have to suck up the demolition of our rights. Higher taxes yes; womb-havers: no.

Ofcourseshecan · 23/07/2023 23:15

women appear to be contorting themselves into pretzels in order to justify voting for the tories

What is ‘contorted’ about seeing that the Tories are the only major political party that’s not wedded to transgenderism? And deciding therefore to vote Tory? It’s depressingly straightforward.

You do talk such nonsense.

Fawful · 23/07/2023 23:43

Ofcourseshecan · 23/07/2023 23:15

women appear to be contorting themselves into pretzels in order to justify voting for the tories

What is ‘contorted’ about seeing that the Tories are the only major political party that’s not wedded to transgenderism? And deciding therefore to vote Tory? It’s depressingly straightforward.

You do talk such nonsense.

It's contorted because you're trying to justify voting for a party demonstrably corrupt and incompetent, for the sake of one issue.
This thread is interesting in that the OP appears genuine, but most answers stay on brand - rabidly tory.
they're not even willing to consider the question...
This board is not going to engage in your dilemma OP... It really is an alt-right petri-dish...

Fawful · 23/07/2023 23:49

Actually, the point of it is to depress the labour vote... That's pretty much all the Right can hope for if it wants to win, it's been so incompetent, it doesn't have a positive message. It just relies on suppressing the left's vote.

IwantToRetire · 23/07/2023 23:54

I wasn't going to join in as really we have a thread like this every other day, but what if remarkable is those who presumably think their virtue is in being left come what may, always adopt this patronising tone and though they are talking to idiots.

And what is strange is that if you ever watch those news paper review tv shows, they nearly always have a patronising "well spoken" female who things drawling out ever so superior comments about how every one else is a nut job is really deeply political and intelligent.

In fact, it begins to feel that the left has no policies.

That it is just enough to say the Tories are the nasty party, and you are nasty if you vote for them.

These threads far from making FWR look unthinkingly right wing, it makes the left look like badly programmed automatons. Do you hand in your home work to the head left honcho and go look what a good girl I've been.

As yet, not to say it isn't signifigant but excluding the issue of women's sex based rights, can anyone list a policy that Starmer's Labour Party has that is different from the Tories.

All they seem to be selling is we haven't been in power for umpteen years, and so we must be better than the Tories.

Look forward to some well researched informative posts that show how Labour would be a good thing for the UK.

IwantToRetire · 23/07/2023 23:57

WhereYouLeftIt · 23/07/2023 22:32

It is not for us, the electorate, to prevent the trans issue from being a gift to the right wing. It is for the left wing parties to get their collective heads out of their collective arses and start talking some damned sense again.

If it is a gift - it is the left wing parties who are making that gift to the right wing. If they want to suicide, if they're too deep down the rabbit hole, there's nowt we voters can really do about it.

Exactly - always the same message. Its never anybody else's fault, it's always women's fault, and it is always women who should sacrifice themselves for some notional better future - which women wont be beneficiaries of because they will still be pulling the double if not triple shift of going to work, coming home to domestic chores and probably have caring responsibilities for elderly relatives.

RealityFan · 23/07/2023 23:59

Fawful · 23/07/2023 23:43

It's contorted because you're trying to justify voting for a party demonstrably corrupt and incompetent, for the sake of one issue.
This thread is interesting in that the OP appears genuine, but most answers stay on brand - rabidly tory.
they're not even willing to consider the question...
This board is not going to engage in your dilemma OP... It really is an alt-right petri-dish...

Just stop with the insults. You can call MNers many things...over invested in gender, scared of gender, putting gender before other things.

But this is not an Alt Right board. I can tell you right now that if Starmer had maintained any connection to material reality, fought for women's sex based rights while fighting for third spaces and the right for people to be gender non conforming, the vast majority of women here, and men like me, would march in his direction.

The Alt Right criticism is gender conforming bollocks.

TheTERFnextDoor · 24/07/2023 00:01

TBH, even though I referenced Labour and I'm a Brit, I am more worried about the rise of the far right elsewhere than in the UK.

The Tories are nowhere near as bad as the right wing in places like the USA (free abortions, gay marriage, etc.). I am much more concerned about what will happen elsewhere. If I can help prevent the far right from rising, then I'd like to.

OP posts:
Waitwhat23 · 24/07/2023 00:02

IwantToRetire · 23/07/2023 23:54

I wasn't going to join in as really we have a thread like this every other day, but what if remarkable is those who presumably think their virtue is in being left come what may, always adopt this patronising tone and though they are talking to idiots.

And what is strange is that if you ever watch those news paper review tv shows, they nearly always have a patronising "well spoken" female who things drawling out ever so superior comments about how every one else is a nut job is really deeply political and intelligent.

In fact, it begins to feel that the left has no policies.

That it is just enough to say the Tories are the nasty party, and you are nasty if you vote for them.

These threads far from making FWR look unthinkingly right wing, it makes the left look like badly programmed automatons. Do you hand in your home work to the head left honcho and go look what a good girl I've been.

As yet, not to say it isn't signifigant but excluding the issue of women's sex based rights, can anyone list a policy that Starmer's Labour Party has that is different from the Tories.

All they seem to be selling is we haven't been in power for umpteen years, and so we must be better than the Tories.

Look forward to some well researched informative posts that show how Labour would be a good thing for the UK.

@IwantToRetire I remember you asking a similar question on a previous thread but I don't think I ever saw an answer.

Maddy70 · 24/07/2023 00:02

No party is perfect and I don't agree with every policy there is no way I would vote for a right wing party as I value education, services and healthcare more than other policies

maltravers · 24/07/2023 00:12

I think the problem is that voting Labour feels like staying with an abusive partner. If Labour would stop (figuratively) hitting us with their anti-woman policies that would help!

FlirtsWithRhinos · 24/07/2023 00:13

DojaPhat · 23/07/2023 22:22

The trans issue has come as a welcome relief to many who can now be much more openly right wing but didn't want to look 'bad'.

This tells me far more about your prejudices and limited worldview than it does about the GC women who have been abandoned by Labour.

Female people exist. The history of sexism we faced and through its shaping of modern culture still face today was not imposed upon us because of some innate difference in the "womanly mind" but because of what male-dominated society constructed around our bodies.

I would not expect a Jewish person to vote for a party that insists Jewishness isn't relevant to anti-semitism no matter how well that party's other policies might stack up, because to expect a Jewish person to put aside the vile injustices their community suffered because it's inconvenient for others to acknowledge it is abhorrent. I would not expect a Black person to vote for a party that insists skin colour isn't revelant to racism no matter how well that party's other policies might stack up, because to expect a Black person to put aside the vile injustices their community suffered because it's inconvenient for others to acknowledge it is abhorrent. And as a woman, I will not vote for a party that insists body sex isn't relevant to misogyny no matter how well that party's other policies might stack up, because to expect a woman to put aside the vile injustices women have and still do suffer because it's inconvenient for others to acknowledge it is abhorrent.

To those who say we should see the bigger picture and put aside what we as women need, what we as women know to be injustice, and hold our noses and vote for parties who have already told us they cannot promise to protect our rights and indeed our existence as a legimate political voice I say

"YOU FIRST"

Because if it's such a reasonable thing, such a small thing, to let go of your own fight in favour of others, and so very dreadful to refuse to step aside and let your own poltical needs be subsumed, let the genderists and the TRAs prove their moral fibre and take that step first.

Because if they won't do it, why the fuck should we capitulate for them?

Ramblingnamechanger · 24/07/2023 01:39

Re Spain. The count in the GE has finished with no clear majority but uit looks as though the broad left party will have to make pacts with most of the small parties to form a government. Interesting the reporter{Adler) on BBC news reported that the trans law has been one of two divisive issues, which is why feminists were planning to cast a blank or spoiled vote. The actual figures aren’t out yet but this may have contributed to the slightly poorer showing for the left/centre parties.

MavisMcMinty · 24/07/2023 01:52

I can never vote Conservative - look at how they’ve screwed over the UK in 13 years - but what I can do is write to the local Lib Dems and Labour parties and get them to engage in debate about this issue. Hopefully there’s time before the GE to at least give pause for thought, and these MN threads have lots of excellent points to make.

I believe that whoever wins the next GE is going to have to volte face on gender anyway, as the snowball becomes an avalanche. The trans ideologues have not had a good year in any regard, and people are “peaking” all over the place.

strongcupofTea · 24/07/2023 02:12

Your idea of left wing isn't really left though is it.
Trans 'issues' are the least of our problems.
I love the fact that the so called left can on one hand spend ages harping on about trans rights and then on the other be harping on about how climate change is going to destroy everyone. If climate change was that bad then surely trans rights wouldn't be an important focus.

OhcantthInkofaname · 24/07/2023 02:21
  1. Separate LGB from QT. Their needs are not the same.
  2. Separate QT from Bio- females. The needs of biological females are distinctly different from that of trans women.
PistachioGelato · 24/07/2023 06:16

Absolutely 100% what @FlirtsWithRhinos said.

FrippEnos · 24/07/2023 06:43

@TheTERFnextDoor

To answer your question.

The left (and centre) needs to open up debate about the trans issue.
Stop the #nodebate malarkey.
Stop calling anyone who doesn't agree that TWAW transphobes.
and actually start calling out the injustices that the TRAs have cause Including their calls to violence.
And both sides need to get off their arses and protect the children.

If that makes me right wing then so be it.

Exasperatednow · 24/07/2023 06:59

DojaPhat · 23/07/2023 22:31

No. It's actually for me very interesting to observe on this board in particular. The threads which would make for excellent study are those in which women appear to be contorting themselves into pretzels in order to justify voting for the tories, among others has been the comparison of similar US-based groups. It'd be too simplistic to describe GC feminism as a gateway to the far right, alt-right types - especially among a certain demographic of British women, but the parallels are striking. My friends and I discuss this all the time!

This

Rudderneck · 24/07/2023 06:59

TheTERFnextDoor · 24/07/2023 00:01

TBH, even though I referenced Labour and I'm a Brit, I am more worried about the rise of the far right elsewhere than in the UK.

The Tories are nowhere near as bad as the right wing in places like the USA (free abortions, gay marriage, etc.). I am much more concerned about what will happen elsewhere. If I can help prevent the far right from rising, then I'd like to.

This is hardly the only issue the right is winning the argument on in the US. The Democrats are struggling including among those people they see as their solid base voters. The working class no longer trust them or see them as standing up for them economically, the Hispanic population is well on it's way to being a Republican voting block, and even the black population seems to be increasingly less loyal.

Identity politics, the kind of approach that is making so many American cities war zones, an inability to talk about immigration rationally, an authoritarian streak that doesn't sit well with most Americans - all of these are turning people away.

From a slightly more cultural angle, over the past 5 years, something I've noticed is that if you look at political writing, public intellectual types, it seems like at this moment in time, the right is producing more really interesting, intelligent writing and ideas. There are some very good writers and thinkers contributing to the political discourse, or older ones who are being discovered. There is a huge phenomena at the moment on youtube of young black Americans discovering Thomas Sowell, for example. Douglas Murray is another example of a person on the right producing some pretty solid stuff that is also accessible to the general public. There doesn't seem to be a comparable amount of good writing, or interesting political thinking coming from the left at the moment - a lot of it seems pretty stale.

To some extent I think this may be a kind of natural cycle. But if the left wants to get in on it, they need to start engaging, which they won't. So the kind of attitude that says, how do we stop the right from capitalizing on this so we can get back to left as usual politics, is part of the problem. Talking to people on the right as if they might have a point, and taking their arguments seriously, does not contaminate you. If you won't engage with the questions people are concerned about, you will inevitably produce shit and will lose their interest.

Soontobe60 · 24/07/2023 07:03

Fawful · 23/07/2023 23:43

It's contorted because you're trying to justify voting for a party demonstrably corrupt and incompetent, for the sake of one issue.
This thread is interesting in that the OP appears genuine, but most answers stay on brand - rabidly tory.
they're not even willing to consider the question...
This board is not going to engage in your dilemma OP... It really is an alt-right petri-dish...

Labour are demonstrably corrupt and incompetent too. Any party that puts the feelings of male AGPs over those of female rights, safety, dignity and equality are both corrupt AND incompetent. This is a massive women’s rights issue, and as a result I cannot vote Labour any more.

Shakenbutbarelystirred · 24/07/2023 07:12

What people can do is to let the left know how many people are single issue voters on this.

Even if you think you may eventually vote Labour/Lib Dem, still contact your local candidates and tell them you are a single issue voter and will only vote for someone who will preserve single sex spaces and not bring in self-id.

Because what most people want is for this to become an issue where all the parties are aligned on mainstream points eg single sex prisons, no gender identity teaching in schools, single sex hospital wards, sports, no self ID. Once those policies are as universal as (say) short waiting lists in the NHS, then voters won’t see the left as the threat it is to women’s rights at the moment.

PatientZorro · 24/07/2023 07:15

Fawful · 23/07/2023 23:43

It's contorted because you're trying to justify voting for a party demonstrably corrupt and incompetent, for the sake of one issue.
This thread is interesting in that the OP appears genuine, but most answers stay on brand - rabidly tory.
they're not even willing to consider the question...
This board is not going to engage in your dilemma OP... It really is an alt-right petri-dish...

Your mistake is in thinking that anyone needs in any way to justify any of their choices to you. Talk about delusions of grandeur.