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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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9
PriOn1 · 21/07/2023 04:51

Interesting. I wonder whether this will be a new direction more generally. That will, of course, depend on who is the new CEO.

And although his position is more reasonable on the surface, suggesting that only men with a GRC should be accessing women’s spaces, that still leaves several massive loopholes, including the fact that unless it is related to criminality, you are not allowed to ask if a man has a GRC (though without it, his birth certificate would still say male so exclusion might be easier in situations where a birth certificate is required).

And of course, the obvious question is whether they’re still pushing for self-ID, in which case having a GRC will mean literally nothing in terms of who has one, and will give access to all women’s spaces to whichever man signs a meaningless declaration.

My worry is that he sounds more reasonable without really changing much, in part because of the mess Stonewall have already created around the Equality Act. But any movement towards a more reasonable dialog is probably positive overall.

PaterPower · 21/07/2023 04:54

Megaphone diplomacy?”

Please tell me he’s got SJB and the Labour MPs in mind there?!

(Rhetorical question - that would require a level of awareness this guy seems to lack).

PatatiPatatras · 21/07/2023 04:57

"Look, I think we all know what a woman is and I think as I said as well, though, since 2004, for almost 20 years now, we've got legislation that allows someone legally to change their gender. Right so somebody can transition from male to female, from female to male."

Do we all know what a woman is?
Changing gender means, sex was changed?

Just like that he picked up a megaphone and contradicted himself.

(Oh and sports, he missed sports from the list of things to protect)

HagoftheNorth · 21/07/2023 05:52

Can’t open the link, but aren’t male & female sex signifiers, not gender? Animals and plants have male/female sex descriptors, not genders

Datun · 21/07/2023 06:02

I've never read anything more slippery.

"Too much of this conversation is taking place on Twitter, so my challenge to the LGB Alliance, my challenge to those that don't agree with me is, is there an opportunity to come together."

Go on then. Let's have it. Stonewall and the LGBA in public.

The women of mumsnet don't agree with you either, Mr Anderson, come do a web chat.

Come on, we're all ready.

TheirEminence · 21/07/2023 06:02

The genie is out of the bottle. The GRA allowed Martin Ponting/Jessica Winfield, a convicted rapist of two girls, to acquire a new birth certificate, which is what the GRC provides, while in prison.

Every democracy has its dirty secrets but too many people know about this now. Is legislation which allows this to happen fit for purpose?

Slothtoes · 21/07/2023 06:09

GRA should be repealed and the Equality Act relied on to protect people who are not wanting to subscribe to gender stereotypes, with EqA amendment to specify sex means biological sex nothing to do with feelings around gender identity.

EmpressaurusOfCats · 21/07/2023 06:11

Stonewall were invited to Venice Allan’s We Need to Talk meeting back around 2017 and bullied the venue into cancelling instead. They’ve always been the ones not prepared to discuss this.

ValancyRedfern · 21/07/2023 06:41

He's slippery as a slippery thing. When asked if Isal Bryson was a man or a woman he was only prepared to say he was a rapist, as if that was a third sex.

Boiledbeetle · 21/07/2023 06:47

Datun · 21/07/2023 06:02

I've never read anything more slippery.

"Too much of this conversation is taking place on Twitter, so my challenge to the LGB Alliance, my challenge to those that don't agree with me is, is there an opportunity to come together."

Go on then. Let's have it. Stonewall and the LGBA in public.

The women of mumsnet don't agree with you either, Mr Anderson, come do a web chat.

Come on, we're all ready.

He has had a pasting on Twitter by both sides for that car crash of an interview last night!

Croneofakind · 21/07/2023 07:04

Did a man who runs a megaphone factory just say there's too many megaphones?
Let's all take a moment to imagine LWS with no tra megaphones.

bellinisurge · 21/07/2023 07:19

He's got a lot of work to do to make me trust his brand again

PurpleWhiteandGreen · 21/07/2023 07:35

Datun · 21/07/2023 06:02

I've never read anything more slippery.

"Too much of this conversation is taking place on Twitter, so my challenge to the LGB Alliance, my challenge to those that don't agree with me is, is there an opportunity to come together."

Go on then. Let's have it. Stonewall and the LGBA in public.

The women of mumsnet don't agree with you either, Mr Anderson, come do a web chat.

Come on, we're all ready.

As if LGB Alliance haven't asked to sit down with Stonewall numerous times.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 21/07/2023 07:37

He was incoherent, waffly & incapable of answering any of her very clear questions.
It was an embarrassment of an interview - but not surprising given that there's no intellectual arguments that justify how men can become women.

Whatwouldscullydo · 21/07/2023 07:40

So in other words " we are more likely to get iur unreasonable demands in if we are quiet and appear reasonable "

The issue isn't whats being asked so much as how its being asked? A bit of rephrasing and a few crumbs that indicate he can see an issue and we are stupid enough to think its going to be ok?

I dont think so

Helleofabore · 21/07/2023 07:47

Just adding the two discussions together as both are important.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4853818-beth-rigby-interviews-iain-anderson?page=1

I think the whole ‘lower the temperature’ has been shown to be just a tactic. This bloke has no intention at all in answering honestly. But that is what he means by lowering the temperature. Exactly what Starmer means by lowering the temperature. Starmer means ‘let’s have a discussion that seems reasonable but where I just keep circling around that legally these males are women and ‘safe spaces’ are well and justified, while ignoring the fact no one can trust a word he just uttered. All because he made it sound reasonable while totaling fucking up a basic premise of women’s established rights.

That is what these politicians mean. Take the ‘heat’ out while we tell you what is going to happen, don’t you get upset. Oh… and we will lie while we are at it and make women’s opposition seem to be symmetrical with threats, intimidate and violence of those extremists on the trans side of the argument so that it shames women and shuts them up.

Those noisy, demanding women…. Who we can’t define in public….

Beth Rigby interviews Iain Anderson | Mumsnet

He does not do well! [[https://twitter.com/skynews/status/1682117673277337600?s=46&t=aWQLrPtVicDNf6MQpq5WVg https://twitter.com/skynews/status/1...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4853818-beth-rigby-interviews-iain-anderson?page=1

OhHolyJesus · 21/07/2023 07:52

Stonewall July 2023 -"Lower the temperature"

Labour (Lisa Nandy in particular) from 2023: "We need less heat and more light"

What are they doing to work towards anything resembling a balanced conversation?

Do something then, if it's that important to you.

Froodwithatowel · 21/07/2023 07:52

Bit late to finally catch on that they're losing their audience ratings.

Men with GRCs still exclude women from women's spaces where those women due to their needs and diversity cannot use mixed sex spaces - men's inclusion isn't more important than women's, either inclusion matters or it doesn't. If it's ok to just bump women out of anything so men get their comfortable happy choices then it's male supremacism, not inclusion. Let's be honest about this and discuss whether as a society we agree that women are a subclass with less rights than men and we're all ok with this.

Women have freedom of belief: not all women perceive men with GRCs as women, and are entitled to single sex spaces. Women who do share this belief are welcome to go and use mixed sex spaces, good for them, but they don't get to remove rights and facilities from other women on the basis of belief.

Having raped or worse is no barrier to getting a GRC, and any chancer can get one and then harass and harm women at will in women's spaces.

No one can ask to see a GRC or check, women's spaces mostly aren't gatekept, so in reality if any man can walk in under any pretext then all men can and must be assumed by the act of walking in that they are declaring themselves as having a GRC. (As some women are forced to walk out and cede all access, and the other women start hoping that the man does not decide to harass or hurt them today - it's in his gift, it's his decision, not theirs.)

Making it men with GRCs only still does not work for women. Third spaces would by providing access for all, and would need to come with heavy pressure from all parts of society that men have to respect women's equality of access needs and make it clear that only an unfashionable bastard would not do so or exclude women, and that society will shun and be disgusted by men who treat women in this way. Get cracking Stonewall. Some nice shiny posters and school campaigns and employer courses and gold stars will do it easily.

ResisterRex · 21/07/2023 07:57

If a straight man gave an interview like that and talked like this about women:

twitter.com/skynews/status/1682129976185741312?s=46&t=WHoOZ_3Kv5G6-FyQuvE0LQ

He'd be called the sexist he is.

What's more, Transgender Trend are bang on when they say:

"Not to be missed interview with the Chair of Stonewall. Unable to coherently defend or clarify his organisation's position on anything, he was lucky to escape being asked about children."

twitter.com/transgendertrd/status/1682166135414726656?s=46&t=WHoOZ_3Kv5G6-FyQuvE0LQ

The damage they've fuelled in schools and clubs like the Brownies is immense.

Froodwithatowel · 21/07/2023 07:59

OhHolyJesus · 21/07/2023 07:52

Stonewall July 2023 -"Lower the temperature"

Labour (Lisa Nandy in particular) from 2023: "We need less heat and more light"

What are they doing to work towards anything resembling a balanced conversation?

Do something then, if it's that important to you.

Where 'lower the temperature' still means in effect 'everybody else stop minding and complaining about our impact on you'.

Everything is always everybody else's fault and responsibility, and it is always a demand for service. Never a reciprocal relationship. It is in fact an abusive relationship.

Helleofabore · 21/07/2023 08:09

I agree that it is absolutely is an abusive relationship the people saying this demand.

it is always, let’s talk. Meaning you talk, then we will tell you what is what, you can talk some more, without getting upset, and we will restate what is what. And so it goes around.

LonginesPrime · 21/07/2023 08:27

ValancyRedfern · 21/07/2023 06:41

He's slippery as a slippery thing. When asked if Isal Bryson was a man or a woman he was only prepared to say he was a rapist, as if that was a third sex.

Yes, it's like the "we all know what a woman is comment" - Stonewall is back to trying to be all things to all people, like it was before it took a stance on trans inclusion. It used to issue all these woolly non-committal statements on trans rights when pushed back then too.

Anyone thinking of the legal definition of rape will see him as having clearly said Bryson is male, where anyone wanting to distance Bryson from other trans people will read the same comment as, like you say, pertaining to a third sex whereby transness is irrelevant.

JacquelinePot · 21/07/2023 08:30

PurpleWhiteandGreen · 21/07/2023 07:35

As if LGB Alliance haven't asked to sit down with Stonewall numerous times.

Ffs, what a bloody cheek! LGBA only exists at all because Stonewall wouldn't talk to them!

Here's Bev on Julain Vigo's podcast. She is righteously angry, and I don't blame her one bit.

Minds] Bev Jackson #savageMinds podcastaddict.com/savage-minds/episode/160713443 via @PodcastAddict podcastaddict.com/savage-minds/episode/160713443

OhHolyJesus · 21/07/2023 08:34

Agreed @Froodwithatowel

It's up to the women to 'lower the temperature'. I hate it when anyone comes with problems and no solutions. It's basically just moaning 'it's so hard'. Sort it out then!

It's their mess now, it's not women's job and no we won't shut up and put up with it. They have been warned time and time again, the refuse to meet with anyone of even reply to letters. This is not how a respectable charity behaves or engages with a hot topic issue which impact the public.

It is Stonewall who have caused this, all of this. They should be begging for us to listen not blaming us for the 'heat' and going on about temperatures.

You want it cooler. Go get so fucking ice.

I'm so tired of this.

LonginesPrime · 21/07/2023 08:38

Ffs, what a bloody cheek! LGBA only exists at all because Stonewall wouldn't talk to them!

The interview kind of made it sound like he was saying "well, Nancy wouldn't let me talk to them, but she's gone now, so.."

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