Radio 4. Right now. Is freaking me out.

[OnePotPolly]

Transmen who want us all to accept that they are actual men. But they are a subset of men who can give birth to babies..
Which only women can do, in fact.

And still claim that they are men. After giving birth to babies. From their wombs.

And the presenter on R4 is actually going with it. And sympathising with the person that obviously men can give birth. Or is he just presenting it so that the audience can draw their own conclusions?

Whatever it is, it is winding me up no end. I have listened to R4 for the past 50 years - 50 YEARS!! every night without fail, while I potter about in the kitchen, tidying up and popping a bit of baking in the oven. I love radio 4, it has seen me through many traumas. Divorce, death of parents, death of sibling, permanently life altering illness of my child. Radio 4 has always been there as a stalwart support. A reality check. Reassurance that the rest of the world continues as normal - ordinary, normal even if it's bad news or a war between foreign nations. Right up to 1am and "Sailing By"

I love Sailing By. I find it, at the same time, both soothing and sad (because it's a reminder of times past)

But the shite that I've just listened to has totally wrecked it for me.
What a load of utter bollocks they have just allowed on air.

Unless they're just airing it to show how ludicrous and self absorbed some people can be. . . . .

Really hope that's what it turns out to be.

We really should be leaving adults to live their own lives, how they choose.
I agree with this 100% but that ends when their choices affect others. I'm an old fashioned liberal. I don't much care what people do as long as they respect other people's rights.
I see this as very similar to the weird trend for 'surrendered wives'. It's deeply sexist and problematic, however if a few individual women chose it, that'd be their right, even if privately I'd have concerns.
However, if 'surrendered wives' and their husbands were suddenly lauded in all the left wing newspapers, changing laws to suit their beliefs to the detriment of all women, and were cheerleaded on Radio 4, then I sure as hell would be speaking up.
I don't see this as much different.
Like the surrendered wives, the trans movement is incredibly sexist and homophobic belief system, reliant on stereotypes and female people being put second.
You can't say 'leave people alone to live their lives' when what we're objecting to is those people pushing both legally and culturally to diminish women's rights and take the gay rights movement back decades.

Like many others on here, I have given this a lot of thought and think it is a complex and challenging area.

I know many mumsnet members will say "It's not challenging at all. Transwomen are men and transmen are women".

But that's actually no different to my son's generation who say "It's not challenging at all. You just let people lead their lives and don't be a bigot."

Both sides are saying "It's not complicated. I am clearly right."

But many people are somewhere in the middle, not wanting to be oppressive to transpeople but not able to sign up for TWAW/TMAM.

I think wish we could just be allowed to say that TW are TW, TM are TM and they have the right to exist without harassment or denigration.

But there seems to be no room for any debate in the middle, just a culture war style division.

But many people are somewhere in the middle, not wanting to be oppressive to transpeople but not able to sign up for TWAW/TMAM.

Why do you think it's "oppressive to transpeople" to acknowledge which sex they are?

I think wish we could just be allowed to say that TW are TW, TM are TM and they have the right to exist without harassment or denigration.

I agree, and if we could all agree on this, things would cool down IMO.

I believe there are men and women, and then there are trans men/women. They should be able to live their lives peacefully, but not at the expense of others.

Oh my goodness, this post has really resonated.
I’m 50 and Radio 4 has been the sound track to my life: it was always on (LW) as I grew up in Holland; it was the background sound to being a SAHM mum for a few years. The first thing I did as I walked into an empty room was put Radio 4 on.

And as I read this, I thought ‘I don’t do this anymore’. I put on a podcast. As others have said, a lot of things seem to have a clunky agenda now. Of course nothing can be completely subjective, but I often feel like I am listening to reeducation camp
propaganda 101.

I love how snowflakey you are about emojis. Proper makes me lol.

The Times radio has a weekly - that’s right, I said weekly - listenership of about half a mill.

Even with the decline in listeners to Today, which is partly explained by new listening habits (see: podcasts and catch up) R4 has a listenership of 9.3million.

Maths doesn’t seem to be your strong point, so I’ll be clear: that’s a lot more than Times ‘owned by that Aussie arsehole’ Radio.

Also lol’ing at you directly lifting your post from a Guardian article. Guess that puts you in the ‘trust the Guardian’ camp I mentioned earlier.

You've got too old for radio 4. It's a natural progression. Time for you to listen to classic fm instead.

Yes, and the lesson they want you to learn is what an awful person you are, what a terrible place your country is, and how you should be jolly well ashamed of yourself.

Turn your tuning dial far to the right

I haven’t RTFT so apologies if this has been said.
The thing is that the staff at R4 (the behind the scenes researchers and editors etc) are all much younger than us now (I’m also 50s) so the output is reflecting that generational shift. Add to that that they are mostly privileged (white and very, very middle class) and haven’t experienced the really harrowing negative impact of this ideology (losing single sex spaces like prisons, refuges etc). I know someone who is pretty senior there and I have been in to see some shows being produced and I felt OLD. Basically the kids have taken over R4, don’t be fooled by the familiar / older presenters as they are not in control of the content. The Stephen Nolan podcast covered the wokerisation at BBC in detail. Jenni Murray left R4 for good reasons.

This is what horrifies me.

Setting aside the "we are men" bollix, why is this permitted at all?

No-one ever challenges them regarding the effects to testosterone on a developing foetus - it's a hell of a powerful hormone. Women who take it, and then come off it still retain their masculinised voices, beards and extra body hair, so you can't tell me it just fades away like it had never happened.

I can't understand any doctor even considering this being appropriate - though I suppose at least some of these women just stop taking it long enough to get pregnant etc and no-one can do anything about it. It's the most selfish thing anyone can do and it is a thing that most disgusts me - using a child as a proper for your ego. And yes - I know many non-trans parents do this, too, but IT ISN'T RIGHT!

Ironically, pregnancy and childbirth are also among the most "female" things that anyone can do, in that although not all women can become pregnant, ONLY women can become pregnant.

I do hope that doctors and hospitals are going to be monitoring the health and development of these poor babies very closely. No-one knows what ticking time-bomb is lurking in their tiny bodies, and seemingly their parents don't even care.

We are warned against smoking, drinking, taking drugs - even eating particular foods - when pregnant, then these women do this! I just can't believe how self-obsessed some people can be. I dread to think what long=term health hours may be awaiting them in 5, 10, 20, even 50 years time. It's awful.

Poor babies.

(And yes - R4 is now complete and utter sh!te)

You’re very invested in what people think of the BBC

I don’t really care about that though. I mean so what if people prefer Times Radio. You’ll get over it.

I’m great at maths btw.

😂

There’s a state broadcaster. You must oblige.

The ick factor comes from trans WOMEN breastfeeding.

Not trans men.

I still listen but only just. I like various programmes but I used to be fully onboard

But we’re the fascists, apparently. Go figure

Although maybe some biology for you. People are talking about men trying to breastfeed.

Times radio is far right? You people are mad

I thought I’d seen some ignorant comments on here in my time, but this truly takes the cake.

And you people have no sense of humour.

This post was about people frothing about the drugs used to induce lactation and how they might affect the baby. I was pointing out that they are used for inducing lactation in natal women, not just transwomen, so any concern should be equally levelled at both. I guess it isn’t as fun to call the lesbians out, though.

I think transwomen would find it oppressive to be called a man, because they do not believe they are men.

Gender critical feminists would say they are men.

I'm suggesting there might be room for a middle position where we say Transwomen are Transwomen. They used to be men but they have chosen to become transwomen.

It wouldn't please either side of the debate though!

Thank you! I'm sure there are many more of us around, but it's so hard to say what you think because there are so many very entrenched views on either side of the debate.

Great post. Really adds something to the debate. Do you learn that level of insight from Times Radio?

I don’t give a monkeys what people think about the BBC, I was simply pointing out how fallacious your earlier post was. I do care about accuracy.