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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Elliot Page on Elizabeth Day

115 replies

RatatouilleAndFeta · 05/07/2023 13:54

Still not looking entirely "joyful"

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CuTxQpfgZDF/?igshid=MTIzZWMxMTBkOA==

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Cailin66 · 07/07/2023 10:45

evieowlette · 05/07/2023 16:49

I think it's important to point out though under the NHS there is a massive 4-6 year waiting gap for most Gender Identity Clinic first appointments and another year or 2 for hormone treatment to start, even though officially it has the highest success rate of any medical treatment on the NHS.

Surgery for GRS can take years to arrange so saying a Trans person is only trans after hormone therapy isn't just transphobic it's also incredibly impractical.

What has the highest success rate of NHS medical treatment? And can you link us to this?

SideWonder · 07/07/2023 11:48

The term Hormone replacement therapy is used interchangeably for women undergoing menopause and Transgender individuals

No it's NOT.

For the hard of thinking: HRT stands for
Hormone
Replacement
Therapy

Men who think they are women take Cross-Sex hormones. These are adding to their hormonal mix, not replacing sex-specific hormones which largely disappear at the end of women's reproductive lives.

SirSamVimesCityWatch · 09/07/2023 22:23

That's a great article, thanks @Backstreets .

Rudderneck · 10/07/2023 00:00

Wow, that article is quite something.

Datun · 10/07/2023 08:13

That's a good article in that he's a terrific writer.

He says he's read Page's autobiography biography. But then asks 'How do we explain the return of contempt for female flesh?'

I haven't read the book, but I know Page talks about their experience of awful sexual abuse in Hollywood including a famous film star saying "I’m going to fuck you to make you realize you aren’t gay. I’m going to lick your asshole. It is going to taste like lime. You’re not gay.”

When O'Neill asks 'How do we explain the return of contempt for female flesh?' why hasn't the perfectly transparent answer slapped him in the face?

He talks as though he's wildly casting around to identify the impetus to escape womanhood, when it's perfectly obvious that misogyny is to blame.

I know fish don't know they're wet, but really.

BettyFilous · 10/07/2023 08:26

Good point Datun. It was an interesting read nonetheless. From the excerpts included, I can only feel pity for Page.

ArabeIIaScott · 10/07/2023 08:39

Presumably it's a rhetorical question?

'This ‘minacious voice’ returns. It tells her, ‘You deserve the humiliation. You are an abomination.’ Later, however, ‘that fucking voice’ brings salvation: it reveals unto her the trans resurrection she must undergo to deliver herself from self-hatred. ‘You don’t have to feel this way’, it says.'

Heartbreaking.

'...women were innately sinful, in their bodies, whereas men were more likely to sin in the world, in their actions. Hence, holy women’s battles with evil took place entirely within the locus of their own flesh, whereas men’s occurred in the world of things and ideas and choices. Deprived of access to the earthly realms of priesthood and learning, women had little choice but to demonstrate their virtue in the one realm where they had control: their bodies.'

😔

'Ours is an era of female liberation, of ‘girl bosses’, of women being told that, if anything, they’re better than blokes at many social and political endeavours. And yet self-mortification has crept back in'

Hm. Perhaps there has been a time during which we tried to achieve equity and reparation for the many centuries of male domination by encouraging girls and women to consider the possibility of liberation; and perhaps the underlying woman-hatred and deeply entrenched power structures are not that easy to shift.

Dianbeatthis · 10/07/2023 08:40

That’s so interesting. I’m certainly going to look out the Bell and Schulenburg books. Page’s book sounds grim. All that self-punching, self-hatred and starving until they alighted upon the sanctioned act of transitioning to ‘become’ something other than they were. A fantastic piece of writing. Of course we all suspect that the appalling acts of misogyny she experienced must have contributed to this too. How could they not?

I’m sure this book will be read by countless young women entering into and going through the turmoil of puberty. How bloody sad is that?

Datun · 10/07/2023 11:15

ArabeIIaScott · 10/07/2023 08:39

Presumably it's a rhetorical question?

'This ‘minacious voice’ returns. It tells her, ‘You deserve the humiliation. You are an abomination.’ Later, however, ‘that fucking voice’ brings salvation: it reveals unto her the trans resurrection she must undergo to deliver herself from self-hatred. ‘You don’t have to feel this way’, it says.'

Heartbreaking.

'...women were innately sinful, in their bodies, whereas men were more likely to sin in the world, in their actions. Hence, holy women’s battles with evil took place entirely within the locus of their own flesh, whereas men’s occurred in the world of things and ideas and choices. Deprived of access to the earthly realms of priesthood and learning, women had little choice but to demonstrate their virtue in the one realm where they had control: their bodies.'

😔

'Ours is an era of female liberation, of ‘girl bosses’, of women being told that, if anything, they’re better than blokes at many social and political endeavours. And yet self-mortification has crept back in'

Hm. Perhaps there has been a time during which we tried to achieve equity and reparation for the many centuries of male domination by encouraging girls and women to consider the possibility of liberation; and perhaps the underlying woman-hatred and deeply entrenched power structures are not that easy to shift.

He doesn't seem capable of answering it tho, other than through the lens of female self hatred. He doesn't seem to realise that women don't just wake up and hate themselves. And that women identifying as men are generally escaping something, whereas men identifying as women are trying to attain something.

ArabeIIaScott · 10/07/2023 17:18

'women identifying as men are generally escaping something, whereas men identifying as women are trying to attain something.'

Very true, yep.

Rudderneck · 10/07/2023 19:13

I don't think that what Page's biography says about Page can necessarily be extrapolated though.

He's suggesting there has been some change that has precipitated the return of this approach to mortifying the flesh. But is exploitative Hollywood bs really new? It doesn't seem like it is. Twenty years ago though young actresses weren't cutting off their breasts to escape objectification.

BodgerLovesMashedPotato · 10/07/2023 23:46

ArabeIIaScott · 10/07/2023 17:18

'women identifying as men are generally escaping something, whereas men identifying as women are trying to attain something.'

Very true, yep.

See to me that's just infantilising women, insinuating they don't know what's right for them, and painting us all as victims.
It's sick.
The constant infantalising and victimising, I mean.

RoseslnTheHospital · 10/07/2023 23:50

That's your unusual interpretation of what is a nuanced and interesting discussion point.

Datun · 11/07/2023 07:37

BodgerLovesMashedPotato · 10/07/2023 23:46

See to me that's just infantilising women, insinuating they don't know what's right for them, and painting us all as victims.
It's sick.
The constant infantalising and victimising, I mean.

In my opinion, the various and distinct causes of gender dysphoria is a significant issue in all of this. So I'm more than happy to listen to different points of view.

What do you think is the reason for such an overwhelming increase in young girls showing up at gender clinics?

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