Elliot Page on Elizabeth Day

[RatatouilleAndFeta]

Still not looking entirely "joyful"

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CuTxQpfgZDF/?igshid=MTIzZWMxMTBkOA==

Nice to know a person can just say they are something and we all have to agree, even when the evidence of our own eyes says otherwise.

"even though officially it has the highest success rate of any medical treatment on the NHS." is there evidence for that somewhere? I'd like to drill down further into what that means, precisely.

Why is it always sympathy for Trans Masculine people and hatred for Trans Feminine people.

In my months here on Mumsnet and its Feminism board, I have seen many emotions directed towards trans women and trans men, including pity, bafflement, frustration and disbelief, but never have I seen any hatred towards them.

It may be that trans men barely get a look in because generally they are not the ones agitating to access women’s spaces and women’s sports, or posting misogynistic parodies of women on TikTok.

Page is promoting a book, and wants to present a particular image in order to do that. I think if someone is repeatedly putting themselves out there via interviews promoting their recent work then other people are to be expected to comment.

I don't find Page's words or presentation of their chosen image to be convincing and Page isn't successfully managing to sell me anything.

The only time Page smiles in this clip is at the end when the interviewer wells up and tells Page how beautiful Page’s words are.

Of course. It's just one statistics in a video about the failed healthcare system for Transgender patients: s

The bibliography for it is attached: https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vRRaC0-7ejSXkPaHwzPkLEGDDfztyGIpyhjoKv3aomkSZXBBT2mhZEXg4AW2pAmr8SvbpWNtL5GCoKj/pub

Sorry for the spelling mistakes. I'm used to being able to edit posts after posting. I can't even delete and re-post here which is rubbish

I just get the impression that Page needs to sit down with a good therapist. What has happened in their past needs therapy and understanding not a book tour. Elliot looks burnt out and in my opinion could do with getting out of the limelight.

@RoseslnTheHospital Here we go. Found the paper: https://jmedicalcasereports.org/uploads/178/13015_pdf.pdf

The results found that out of 3398 patients only 0.47% expressed any kind of regret or de-transitioned. Or 16 people. 13 only de-transitioned temporarily due to other factors which left 3 people unhappy with the treatment. This makes this treatment the most effective treatment on the NHS.

I'm not commenting on Page; I hope the book tour finishes soon and they get a rest from promoting it.

What I'm curious about is the emotional onanism the interviewer and commenter are indulging in. Entrancing themselves with a vacuous narrative about being 'true to yourself' and bawling their eyes out over it.

I suppose its a sort of asexual version of the fairytale princess Happy Ending people are looking for - an alternative to the Big Romance is the Big Self Reveal.

Maybe that's a slight improvement in that women might move away a bit from wanting the Perfect Man/HEA, maybe Finding the Self is a little less risky (leaving aside the politics of transition).

But it's still a mirage and an impossible promise. The basic premise is escaping the self, which isn't possible and is unhealthy. Transformation. Escape. Rebirth. We long for it and as we do so we remain stuck.

I do wish as a culture we'd move onto healthier narratives. Acceptance is very unexciting but it's the only thing that really works, I think.

@evieowlette I think you've linked the wrong thing, as what you have linked is a case study about a de-transitioner and about how to successfully manage de-transition.

That's a paper (in poor English) from Malaysian authors with a case study of a distressed male who was raped as a 12 year old and nothing to do with NHS outcomes.

@ArabeIIaScott

You realise just how similar this rhetoric is to how Gay and Lesbian people where treated in the UK and still are around the world today.

The concept of being homosexual was abnormal and escaping the religious values of monogamy and heterosexuality was seen as unhealthy. Well i say unhealthy it was treated much worse than that. Gay men where also consistently framed as predators or paedophiles in the same way Trans Women are today amongst a range of other stereotypes.

Just because this isn't tied to religion doesn't mean what you're saying is any different. Most Transgender people do not choose to become trans whether you can believe that or not. Trans people have existed forever in different cultures and the prevalence of more Transgender people coming out, alongside medical advances such as HRT and better acceptance for non-binary people has opened that pandoras box and made it impossible to go back.

You may see this as a bad thing but it can be a way to a better life. A lot live in intense fear and may never come out. I know a friend who is contemplating killing herself because she can't bare to face the ridicule in Japan and the fact she will never be accepted. These are silent deaths, not as many as the media would lead you to believe but they do happen more often than they should.

Transmen usually don't engage in aggressive destruction of men's boundaries or single sex spaces. Nor are they usually motivated by sexual fetishism.

If there’s real body dysmorphia then one can only be sympathetic to individual transmen.

But the general ideology is problematic- instead of standing strong in sisterhood and fighting the good fight for the liberal of women and girls from sexism, it’s like they’re traitors - going over to the enemy.

@Beowulfa You are correct. Sorry about that I have a lot going on so I picked the first google search. I've read it before but never saved it. proper link below

Summary: epath.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Boof-of-abstracts-EPATH2019.pdf#page=139

GenderGP article including the full article reference:

Aaaaaaaaa posted the same link twice. Why can u not edit posts this is so dumb.

https://www.gendergp.com/risk-into-perspective-for-trans-patients/

GenderGP, the organisation whose mission:

Is to make gender-affirming healthcare, advice and education available to gender diverse people, and those who support them. The long term goal of our transgender clinic is to alleviate the suffering associated with discrimination and prejudice too often faced by this minority group.

Their costs - it’s a private healthcare company whose primary aim is to make money:

*Estimated Private Medication Costs:
Feminising:

• Oestrogel – from £28 for a three month supply
• Estradiol Tablets – from £12 for a three month supply

Masculinising:

• Testogel – from £40 for a one month supply
• Sustanon – from £10 for a one month supply
• Nebido – from £97 for a three month supply

• Anti-androgens – from £10 for a three month supply
• Puberty blocking injections – from £270 for a three month supply
• Puberty blocking nasal spray – from £70-£90 for a one month supply

It is not in GenderGP’s interests to promote research that questions the impact of these treatments on children, adolescents and young people.

And your first link is well over 300 pages long, which of the conference sessions do you suggest we read?

@evieowlette it's laughable that you think @ArabeIIaScott hasn't heard your nonsense lines of argument before... are you new here? 😂

My first point would be that rates of detransition alone aren't a good measure of treatment success. And, there are many issues with that review of patient notes that many people posting here have gone over before.

And, I have no issue with adults presenting how they wish, or having whatever treatment they and their HCPs feel is necessary for them. None of that would ever enable anyone to change sex.

I wouldn't have any issues with anyone who wants to be trans if their beliefs had a basis in reality. It seems that believing changing actual sex happens, TW have periods, can breastfeed , that taking an inverted penis makes an actual vagina, that taking muscle from the arm and rolling it up is exactly the same as a penis, are all widely held beliefs. A trans man told me that their penis was fully functioning! Just like a real one.And we are supposed to believe that living for years as a man makes no difference to their physical strength.And we are all supposed to say how wonderful a person looks and how feminine an obvious man is. Now, if the person in question just got on quietly with life and didn't ask me to indulge in their delusions we would all get on better.

That study examined the Patient assessment reports created between August 1st 2016 to August 2017 for words related to detransition or regret.
which kinda excludes those who disconnected with the service and detransitioned

Heres another article explaining that the data we have on detransitioners is incomplete

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-023-02623-5

Ideally, to measure discontinuation, detransition, and/or regret, a clinic or study would wait the appropriate follow-up time and then collect discontinuation, detransition, and/or regret data from everyone who started medical transition in a well-characterized sample. The study would use accurate measurement instruments for clearly defined definitions of discontinuation, detransition, and/or regret, and, to be relevant for assessing protocols or risk, the sample would also be comparable to the sample of interest.

So overall I’d say your quote that transition is the most effective treatment on the NHS is a little…err, bold

Because that is literally all she talks about and 100% the way she comes across. Meanwhile males are the total opposite when they transition and barge into women's spaces.

A little thought could have answered your own question.

yeah you completely miss calculated that. I helped my friend figure out the costs. This is over 3 years for a Trans Woman. It's not un-affordable but GenderGP offer the bare minimum and the lowest dose of medication out of any provider making it kind of useless. It's also not considered very safe because they don't book regular Endocrinologist appointments. It's basically DIY hormones but you pay more. It also doesn't include laser hair removal, GRS, Name change costs, Gender Marker change costs etc...

GENDERGP COSTS

Set-up fee: £195
Subscription fee: £30 x (12 x 3) = £1080
Information gathering: £65
Follow up sessions: £30 x 6 = £180
Discover session: £60
Medication: £20 x (12 x 3) = £720

Full health check = £250 * 3 = £750
Oestrogen = £50 (4 * 3) = £600

TOTAL (WITHOUT BLOOD TESTS) = £2300
TOTAL (WITH BLOOD TESTS) = £3650