Should threads be moved out of here as well as in?

[TeenDivided]

Just musing really.

We have threads moved into this board if monitors / MN think they are about sex & gender.

But we have recently had the Disney thread, which wasn't really about sex and gender but a wider issue, being used to say that FWR is racist and needs an even closer eye on it. We now have the great awakening thread which is only about sex and gender tangentially and more about conspiracy theory placed on this board.

Should the FWR users be actively reporting non sex&gender threads requesting they be moved out to somewhere more appropriate?

Yep.

I agree that something feels different and that (even taking name changes into account) there have been a higher number of poster names I don't recognise lately, although I don't think the second is necessarily a bad thing - as far as I'm concerned, the more people there are talking about this the better. My guess is that there are a few things going on:

Some of our monitors realising they're losing control of the narrative, and panicking. This has been predicted for a long time and now we're living it.

As the subject attracts more coverage, new posters arriving from other boards.
I think it's worth remembering that the default position on much of Mumsnet is generally left of centre, and that it must be quite a culture shock to land here and find posters from the left and right having cordial conversations, along with lots of disenchanted Labour voters (me!) and links to the Daily Mail, Telegraph, Spectator etc. Yes, some 'you're so all right wing' protests might be coming from a bad faith position but I'd wager some of them are just used to more tribal thinking and are genuinely taken aback by what they see.

Some regular posters just taking a break for various reasons. I'm mainly posting on threads about the Labour Party at the moment because I've got a big decision to make about how I vote next year and I'm focusing on that.

I think the AI / chatgpt point is a good one. I hadn't really thought about that.

Also there's been a change of tone on other boards too. Style and Beauty, for example, is becoming unrecognisable for reasons I haven't entirely worked out.

So like I've said, I think there's more than one thing going on.

I'm still not sure about the op's proposal though. I understand the thinking but I'm uneasy about it. It feels like fighting bad faith with more bad faith.

That was an extremely odd thread and I couldn’t get my head around what it was doing in Feminism: S&G…

The Disney one was also interesting in how differently posters interpreted the highly ambiguous OP. Lots of angry assumptions about what the OP was saying and generated some very interesting debates. Originally I gave up on the thread as it was hard to follow because of wildly different tangents. After rereading (some) it, there were some inappropriate posts, others called those out, some not very well expressed sentiments. Most posters were unfamiliar user names, very few FWR regulars.

Reading it left me reflecting even more on the nature of racism so was illuminating, BUT…it probably should’ve been moved from FWR and those decisions probably shouldn’t be solely up to an OP. There are serious attempts to shut down these debates. If you throw enough mud, some will stick. FWR was called a ‘hate group’ at one point. Just as women had to work twice as hard as men to be thought of as half as good, it feels FWR has to be twice as careful as any other MN board.

As a new joiner to the board (I felt compelled to join after the BC trans policy announcement), I’ve been surprised at a small number of posts (the Disney one in particular) which appear to be just general ‘anti-woke’ verging into racism. It does almost look like sabotage to try and get the board shut down.

The “go woke go broke” title really struck a bell as this is a phrase used by people who are attacking Fender for highlighting black and female sponsored artists. I hadn’t heard it in a non-racist context.

I'm not sure about my proposal either

Seriously I cant believe we are talking about this again.

Perhaps those speculating about motives etc., are part of the problem.

I never saw the Disney thread so have no idea what that was about.

But the one about the bedroom and use of the word master was totally hijacked by nutters who seem to have no idea that master implies male, and the OP was objecting to that. And it was nothing to do with racism, expect by those who had failed to grasp what the point of the post was.

Those who are ruining threads are those who presume they know the motives of other posters.

And it is nobodies business to tell anyone where they should or should not post.

And please remember that the splitting of what was FWR was a reactionary move by mumsnet in response to complaints that talking about trans issues was alienating so please do not on any account collude with that ahistorical anti feminist notion.

Sex and gender, still by its URL is about FWR. That is because the basis of women's discrimination and oppression is because of our sex. So all issues relating to women rights are from the basis of sex.

This board would function much better if those who dont understand why someone wants to start a thread on a certain issue just dont comment.

If you think a thread is just a ploy to push a right wing narrative DONT join in. What better way to expose it is a false flag than to leave it with a few overtly goady posts.

And if it seems like that aren't so many contributing is because whilst FWR gives many the opportunity to talk about and ask things that other forums dont allow, that in itself means the forum never as a whole moves forward.

And there is absolutely no doubt that FWR have helped women who have turned to it as a last resort when facing a crisis at work or at home.

But on the other hand it does mean that issues never get beyond a sort of outraged reaction to yet another encroachment on women's rights.

If anyone remembers a while ago some long time contributors to FWR were talking about setting up a community where issues could be discussed, but more importantly built on. ie creating a platform where you could log information and then build on it, and through that move things forward. More often than not topics on FWR get repsonses that are ones that have been said many, many times before. But we have no way of making that into a searchable archive.

And I really wouldn't worry about somehow people being manipulated into being seenas right wing and / or racist. This is being done off mumsnet and very effectively, as had been done to KJK.

Just dont respond to goady threads. Leave them to whither away.

As I said I cant understand how anyone would presume to be the one to get threads moved. It isn't your forum anymore than it is mine.

PS what was the Disney thread about?

There are steady waves of attack, all focused on trying to stop women talking about this stuff. It's never very subtle, like the 'Oh I'm GC as they come but' gambit. And now shouting 'transphobe' doesn't have the power it did, the apparent new thing seems to be

1. Anything the poster doesn't like hearing is extremist far right (despite the fact this doesn't really exist in the UK and is a USA boogey man import)

2. Any evidence that the poster dislikes or finds unhelpful is you having been fed propaganda by the far right extremist boogey man, and it definitely never happened.

3. On being provided with evidence - in one case video evidence demonstrating that the poster was apparently now claiming that Stonewall was headed by a far right extremist boogey man infiltrator, I particularly enjoyed that bit - they look blankly through the evidence and go on repeating the mantra. I'm not sure why. It's all a bit 'he thrusts his fists against the post and still insists he sees the ghost', it's less convincing that they're right than that they may be a sandwich short on the picnic.

4. FWR is FULL of far right extremist infiltrators here to wickedly convince women that their rights are under attack. I would LOVE to know how we spot them and what the user names of these people are, and how they're coming up with the fantastic evidence, but if Nancy Kelley is one then wow these spies are good. <Looks suspiciously at Datun and Arabella.>

5. Everybody and everything is homophobic and racist. But only what they say is homophobic and racist, anything you think is them being homophobic or racist is an indicator of you being a far right spy boogeyman bad person who doesn't exist. Or something.

Smile and nod. Smile and nod. They only ever play the one with the ball.

The Disney thread had a lot of posters who seemed oddly different in tone from the FWR regulars (they had no interest in feminism or women's issues) a few of whom were rather exercised at some of the Disney cartoon remakes featuring characters whose skin was dark when it used to be light. Which did seem a strange and distinctly iffy thing to get upset about, particularly in the light of the woke/broke comment.

There was no discussion of the general issue of the original streaming model no longer being profitable for anyone, Disney included, and, for some reason, an egregious misrepresentation of the 'kiss' between Kirk and Uhura in Star Trek TOS (that was the only thing I felt moved to comment on).

Then two days later a thread was started in Site Stuff to condemn FWR discussions and demand they be put under closer scrutiny because they are racist and extremely right wing, with members who were flung off the Telegraph forums for being too extreme. No links were supplied to any of that, but the Disney thread was mentioned.

@DeanElderberry Thanks. Admit that sounds very odd. And did anyone point out this strange "co-incidence" and did MNHQ have a view?

(I think I saw Disney in the title and just thought it must be one of those sponsored links that pop up, so never lookd)

I think the tone has really shifted only in the last few months.

I used to come here to be challenged with quite intellectual posts, but now it seems petty, and ‘click batie’.

Also you know it’s not true FWR when the h dry whit and brilliant sarcasm goes. That’s when I get suspicious because it’s hard to properly replicate that, whether through bots or just people trying to infiltrate/discredit, they are just not very funny, whereas genuine posters are.

For many posters here, there is a stark divide between actually not being a racist, and American style antiracism. The latter is the kind that gets called woke, and is exemplified by Kendi's claim that the only way to fight racism is with more racism.

That kind of antiracism is part of a larger movement that includes gender ideology - they are not separate things but one ideology. Which, in my opinion anyway, is in fact deeply racist.

It's very difficult not to see accusations of racism towards those who don't buy into American antiracism as any different than the accusations that TRAs throw around towards anyone who doesn't buy into their POV.

I realize that this is a perspective a lot of MN progressive-left members haven't really seen much of, but I'd suggest that the reflexive assumption that anyone resisting that particular narrative on racial issues must be a bigot is no different than the assumption that anyone not spouting TWAW is a bigot. It reflects a kind of political tribalism that is ultimately uninformed about the perspectives it tries to critisize and even demonize.

All posts should be placed in the appropriate forum

Those who are ruining threads are those who presume they know the motives of other posters.

Yes, this.

There was a very nasty one the other day, which I found a bit shocking, several people piled on one poster, who was the OP if I recall correctly. Who wasn't saying anything particularly crazy and was clearly not in bad faith. Lots of posts from new names, and writing styles I didn't recognize.

I remember wondering whether one was actually a bot, or just some sort of professional troll, the posts just gave that impression.

Also you know it’s not true FWR when the dry whit and brilliant sarcasm goes. That’s when I get suspicious because it’s hard to properly replicate that, whether through bots or just people trying to infiltrate/discredit, they are just not very funny, whereas genuine posters are.

I think this is another myth the FWR has about itself. I dont doubt there are many really witty and sometimes laugh out loud posts, but more often than not it just ends up with endless posts hijacking a thread while usually only one or two try to out wit each other! Many interesting threads have disappeared into an endless stream of one liners.

Have often thought FWR could benefit from a "letting off steam" thread where it might be possible to post close to the knuckle (by MNHQ standards) comments without hijacking a thread with a totally other purpose.

Didn't there used to be a friday night thread?

Thanks for taking the time to respond I don’t know what American-style anti racism is but will look it up. The attacks that I have seen on Fender were because they have artists such as Nova Twins, Wet Leg and the Linda Lindas as sponsored artists and this caused a “go woke go broke” backlash. It was the first time I had heard the phrase. I have to admit I still don’t understand the furore with Disney but then I haven’t watched any recent Disney films.

@BCCoach If you haven't watched recent Disney films. Think what reactions could be if the 007 franchise decided to make James Bond gay.

Some people would say 'this is fab, nice representation', other might say 'you have ruined the franchise, James Bond is a womaniser'
Now the response to the former comment could be 'go woke go broke' and the response to the latter could be 'don't be homophobic'.

(And a bunch of people in the middle who say 'that's a bit different, OK I'll run with it if the actual film and plot are good'.)

"The Disney thread had a lot of posters who seemed oddly different in tone from the FWR regulars"

I read the first post on that thread and decided that I wasn't interested enough to post.

However, what I have seen yet again in the past 24 hours is posters who have never posted on FWR but have some posting history on other parts of MNHQ before have come onto a thread and sought to shame posters. Explicitly saying things like 'this is not feminist' or 'you are doing gender critical women no favours' as if they have some higher knowledge.

Again it is them using the leverage that it is people like Fox News, The Times, The Daily Mail and The Telegraph are the only media publishing content about this. They honestly think they are onto something. When all they do when they post is show just how narrow minded they themselves are and so full of prejudice.

"So, I believe that has contributed to people's arguments of 'you are all influenced by far right media'. What I don't really see after years of intensively being on this board is that there is actually a 'drift' of the majority to be right wing. Despite posters declaring it to be so."

Coming back to this.

I also wonder whether the ramping up recently where posters seem to be leveraging the 'right wing media' making us all supporting the 'right wing' or being 'influenced by the right wing', also comes from the slew of court cases and legislation that has been driven by the USA that we discuss and analyse. It seems just discussing and analysing something is now considered proof that we are shilling and supporting the 'far right'.

**Of course, I am not saying that people shouldn't report and discuss what they want at all. In fact, if it is relevant, I say post it and if it isn't something people want to discuss they will ignore it (or used to - unless it was a goady thread).

The newspaper/press accusations are nuts anyway, as one of the papers most assiduously analysing, discussing and defending women as a sex class is the very left-wing Morning Star, my regular communist fix.

We have also seen accounts of the recent court cases (re women's rights and safeguarding) from legal correspondents at the Guardian and the BBC. As long as the 'media editors' and 'progressive rainbow correspondents' are kept away from the legal stuff, some more balanced reporting is out there and it is becoming less rare in the left-of-centre media. Even the Guardian and the BBC can't ignore Forstater, Bailey et al. The cases are too big.

Never underestimate the shock of having your left wing bubble punctured.
It's a total headfuck.

I was saying on another thread - so may as well repeat it here and embarrass myself twice over - that after the Gordon Brown & Gillian Duffy incident I blamed everyone but Gorgon Brown. (Luckily for me I wasn't on Mumsnet then so there's no evidence.)

I'm not saying it's the only thing going on, but I do think that some of the newer posters are quite likely having a genuine 'What the fuck' moment. I'm not sure it's possible to distinguish those types of post from bad faith ones.

Gordon Brown

It wasn't a coincidence. I started that thread after reading it. Surely it's not rocket science? I was sick of the threads with racist undertones (and as I explained on the Disney thread as well). The article linked mentions the Little Mermaid film as an example of Disney going 'woke' (and therefore broke) and the OP reacted in the first post with a cry laughing emoji. Mocking Disney for being diverse. As a black woman, I'm tired of that shit.

I also referenced other racist threads that have popped up in FWR recently.

Yes I agree with this. This has certainly happened to me as a lefty.

The annecy thread was the most recent example. Some really horrific racist comments were on there and deleted. Gross generalisations were made about several ethnic groups, around the world.

Due to MN policy of deleting threads and comments, saying you’ve never seen it doesn’t mean it didn’t exist.

My feelings as an ethnic minority are valid.