Should threads be moved out of here as well as in?

[TeenDivided]

Just musing really.

We have threads moved into this board if monitors / MN think they are about sex & gender.

But we have recently had the Disney thread, which wasn't really about sex and gender but a wider issue, being used to say that FWR is racist and needs an even closer eye on it. We now have the great awakening thread which is only about sex and gender tangentially and more about conspiracy theory placed on this board.

Should the FWR users be actively reporting non sex&gender threads requesting they be moved out to somewhere more appropriate?

I'd like to see more of the threads that aren't about gender issues in "feminist chat"

So i discovered on a different thread yesterday! Who knew the royal family was so deletion inducing.

I think it is time someone posted that lovely Venn diagram (I do love a Venn diagram) showing how differing groups intersect.

Not believing in gender ideology is not 'right wing' if the reason you don't believe in it is biology/feminism/anti-stereotypes rather than for example conservative religious fundamentalism prevalent in some areas of the USA.

I feel as if on this board we should try to stick to the sex and gender discussions not not get distracted by other agendas, especially those coming from the US style politics.

Can I add we have two feminism threads - general chat and sex and gender. Sex and gender now probably covers a wider range of topics as it’s impact is being realised - sport, employments, access to single sex spaces, our concerns for our children, safeguarding , abolition of gendered women based word, transitioners and detransitioners etc

in theory I’m not being directly affected - I am old enough to be resilient and don’t mix in circles where gender ideology matters - but I care greatly about what is happening and will do anything I can to stop it or at least slow it down.

This one? Or another one?

@Boiledbeetle That one will do nicely.

This board by definition / location in MN (by being named feminism: sex and gender) is the green circle.
Some people seem to mistake it for being the red one just because the 2 overlap.

if those in the green circle dare to agree with someone in the red circle on that bit that overlaps then the green circle then certain posters on here will label the green circle bigots and Nazis.

Or trump supporters. When trump did a clip a while back when he decided to run again for President i think I was disgusted at the fact that i was watching trump and finding myself in agreement with some of what he said.

Now whether he believed what he was saying or not is irrelevant and the fact that I tend to disagree with trump on 99.5% of stuff is deemed irrelevant I will forever be labelled an extreme far right bigoted Nazi trumpster by those who take this black and white thinking of right and left to the extremes every time.

In general I don't think threads should be moved. Gender ideology is not a stand alone thing, so naturally we do get discussions around tangential issues, or for example court cases that are not directly related but could have an impact, etc.

The exceptions IMO might be threads deliberately started by trolls, or where they were places mistakenly.

Really what it comes down to is that I don't trust either MN, despite their best efforts, to make good decisions on this, and I certainly don't trust the people who think that it's really important to toe the right political lines.

Based only on the Disney thread, I think it is important that threads can be moved elsewhere. That certainly seemed to be started to sabotage the FWR space.

LoobiJee

There has been some very robust discussion about left wing vs right wing on FWR. Do you mean though that you believe that the board is drifting to the 'right' as some posters have attempted to portray? Or are you referring to the constant barrage of posters telling us that even reading a particular paper is 'coercing' feminists to the far right as I was told yesterday, when that is such a weak and almost tribal argument?

Is it a symptom of the current trend of which media is publishing content?

I would normally be against this as I believe that on balance and regardless of intention, any thread that brings fresh traffic to this board normally does more good than harm.

That said I've got eyes in my head and I can see where you're coming from.

So errmm.... I'll need to think about it.

I think we may need to bear i mind that this forum is now quite well known, as it is frequently mentioned in media reports. This alone will draw people in to see what it is all about, including many with axes to grind; and those that think they can take the nasty terfs on, and so on.

Also, there seems to be an increase in the number of American and Australian posters in recent times - and they naturally bring with them American style politicking.

What was it about the Disney thread that was so inappropriate do you think?
Was it not based on DeSantis having taken them on for their LGBTQ+ portrayals, or was it something else?

I've always hated disney because I think it is, in large part, responsible for the reproduction of heavily gendered streotypes.

Putting aside any deliberately provocative / bad faith threads started to smear FWR as right wing...I have argued from day one that it is fallacious* to believe there are any feminist threads which don't hinge on sex or gender, because as women we are discriminated against on the basis of our sex, and gender is one of the mechanisms by which that discrimination is enacted.

*I'm not sure if that is the exact word I want but menopause brain fog is hitting me hard today.

Ummmm… I don’t think Australian posters don’t bring ‘American Style’ politicking with them.

Although I can see where you are coming from, I think that most of the time it is reasonably clear whether something is relevant to this board or not. I think it isn't so much 'sex and gender' as 'sex and gender ideology'.

Which is why the Disney thread probably should have been elsewhere as it was about lots of important things but probably not sex and gender ideology.

No, but they do bring Australian style.....I guess after Posie went down under a few Aussies and New Zealanders appeared on here too.

@hellebore

I agree that there has always been robust left v right debate. And that applies to MN as a whole, not just FWR. (If you ever spent any time on the Brexit threads.)

I think there has been a change to that in recent months, probably this year.

Say about a year ago, there were a lot of “you’re all right wing bigots, look who you are associating with”, basically: you’re nasty, be kind! All very predictable stuff. And generally guilt by association type stuff.

That still happens; but there’s a new element, and to me if feels more….. concerted.

I often wonder whether there’s an AI / chatgpt element to it, because at times of feels a bit Bot Farm. Which is entirely plausible - given the size and profile of mumsnet, it’s going to be an obvious target for trialling your ChatBots. (And it’s also plausible because it’s actually happened on here previously - remember we did have an actual Bot Farm, but in the form of a tag-teaming group of humans, who were exposed when they accidentally posted their behind the scenes stuff in the thread. Everyone found it hugely entertaining at the time.)

There are times when I wonder whether there are scripts being tested out on us.

A few weeks back, someone posted a “where are the regulars?” thread; and I’d been thinking that myself for a while and wondering what was going on.

Since then, in addition to feeling like some regulars are MIA, it also feels like a new ‘discourse’ has been / is being introduced.

To be clear, this isn’t me doing an “you’re all trolls!!!” accusation. Clearly there are a lot of genuine posters on here. And we all know that there have always been In Bad Faith posters on here. The feeling that I’ve been getting over recent weeks / months is that there’s been a change in the nature of the In Bad Faith posters.

But I may be wrong of course.

It’s just a feeling. But it’s based on paying attention to patterns / changing patterns.

What do you think?

I think that many regulars have become exhausted and worn down and I know quite a few who have taken breaks and only occasionally come on now. So you are quite right about that.

However, there are also many name changes from those who regularly name change too, of course.

I agree that the accusations do seem to have changed. It was noted a few months ago just how many of those accusatory posters used the phrase 'I am GC but ...' or 'I used to post here but it is now .....' How many of those are genuine, well, who knows. Was that a new tactic?

Now I think the 'you are all right wing' has come back combined with other phrases. Some of these are posters who have been pushing that same line for months, if not years. The reason I questioned you is that now there seems to have been a large increase in the articles published by media that many associate, rightly or wrongly, with right wing.

Then they seem to drift that to 'far right wing'. I assume for further polarisation.

So, I believe that has contributed to people's arguments of 'you are all influenced by far right media'. What I don't really see after years of intensively being on this board is that there is actually a 'drift' of the majority to be right wing. Despite posters declaring it to be so.

It is a tactic. It is not new. But now, due to particular media being some of the only ones publishing articles, and those articles being shared here, it has become leverage for those posters. Those posters attempt to convince and silence others who are perhaps not as informed or certain about their opinions.

Now, I personally believe in reading or consuming media as widely as possible. I know that some others, maybe many others, believe that too. I take all individual content as it is rather than shunning it for whatever the overall political views of the outlet is. I evaluate it and make up my own mind.

I am not doing anything unusual, I actually assume it is more the norm than the 'I won't read it because it published by a 'bad' media outlet'.

However, there is purists who are becoming louder about this on these threads. Maybe that is what we are seeing. I wasn't sure though whether you felt the general political alignment was drifting or whether you were commenting on the change.

Thank you for answering.

I think the only remedy for the "you are right-wing" bs, is to look at arguments on their merit, and ignore whether they are supposed to be left or right wing.

One of the really interesting results of gender ideology, and some other id pol issues, is that you have more people of a conservative mindset who have found some good ideas in certain leftist writers or ideas or sources. And people generally on the left who have become more aware of conservative or right wing ideas. And both have realized that there is some intellectual merit there.

This is not a bad thing despite upsetting those who are wedded to political tribalism.

@Helleofabore

'I am GC but ...' or 'I used to post here but it is now .....'
My observation is that the “I’m as GC as they come but…” catchphrase disappeared once it was spotted as a pattern (due to overuse) and regularly challenged.

What I don't really see after years of intensively being on this board is that there is actually a 'drift' of the majority to be right wing.
I don’t disagree. I’m not claiming that there’s a ‘drift to the right’. (Not least because that wouldn’t be the first set of labels I would apply to people anyway.) I generally look at posts / posters / people through a lens of: supports women’s rights / doesn’t support women’s rights, has thought it through / hasn’t thought it through, makes accurate points / makes false claims. And the left / right thing is unhelpful when a lot of posters seem to be applying a US viewpoint to the UK. I do pay attention to the vote Labour / Tory / other party discussions as they are more relevant to the UK. As an example I was really interested in what Miriam Cates had to say - until I read some statements she’d made and thought: uh oh, she appears to be channelling Serena Joy.

Having said all that, I’ve become suspicious of late that we might be in the foothills of a ‘but you women will be so much happier back in your lovely kitchens with your lovely kid’ campaign.

I wasn't sure though whether you felt the general political alignment was drifting or whether you were commenting on the change.

It’s not so much that I feel the general political alignment is drifting, more that I’ve started feeling like there might be some attempts at manipulation going on here. And that’s not a ‘you lot are being manipulated you silly things’ line, that’s me thinking: hang on, am I being manipulated? Is this a campaign?

And alongside that when I see threads in Site Stuff saying MN needs to keep an eye on fwr, at around the same time that a ‘not on brand for FWR’ thread is posted here or moved her, I start to get suspicious that there’s a close down FWR campaign under way.

tldr version: I’m suspicious!

"I start to get suspicious that there’s a close down FWR campaign under way."

I agree. The only thing I would add, it is just another one from a slightly different direction.

"tldr version: I’m suspicious!"

You are not alone.

And alongside that when I see threads in Site Stuff saying MN needs to keep an eye on fwr, at around the same time that a ‘not on brand for FWR’ thread is posted here or moved her, I start to get suspicious that there’s a close down FWR campaign under way.

The Disney thread had been running for 3 days. Then the poster of the thread in site saw it, commented a few times and then started the thread in Site Stuff. So i think there is obviously a clear causal link from one to the other, but it would have been a slow burn campaign.

Though that's kind of my point. The Disney thread wasn't about gender ideology, it was about much wider issues. if it had been in chat the discussion wouldn't have been so nuanced maybe, but also FWR wouldn't have been given the flack for having the debate.