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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Time to take back language - a manifesto discussion thread

101 replies

Forwarder · 02/07/2023 20:59

One of the anti women lobby's key tools is language.

Okay, calling women non-men is, as yet, still a step too far. But much of their success is in redefing language.

I would like to suggest that MN FWR creates a new lexicon, that recentres the discussion on to women's rights. I realise this thread might get deleted, but worth a try.

What words and phrases do think need alternatives and what would you suggest?

OP posts:
PomegranateOfPersephone · 02/07/2023 21:45

Let’s just go with sticking to man and woman, girl and boy for a start.

Then we use sex when we mean that and avoid the word gender unless we are talking about grammar or following it by the word identity.

Describe things clearly and accurately in plain English and try to avoid jargon even if it takes more words.

Say “man who believes he is or wishes he was or is pretending to be a woman” and vice versa.

Say he or she if you are talking about known individuals or unknown individuals of known sex.

FemaleAndLearning · 02/07/2023 22:10

Totally agree we have to be able to speak in plain language.
I don't use transwoman or transmen anymore. I use a man who says he is a woman. A woman who says she is a man.

The confusion around the word transwoman was evident on the streets a couple of weeks ago when I was talking about sports and a couple of men thought a trans woman was a woman who wanted to be a man and wanted to play on the womens team. The men were shocked when I told them no there were men on the women's teams.

I think we should always use sex based pronouns, but some people may not be ready for that yet so we should leave that open.

It would be good if we could use
Peaked
Autogynephile
Woman
Man
Girl
Boy
Mother
Female body parts as related to women!

I was once a newcomer so it would be good not to talk in abbreviations for other newcomers!

Women want our stuff back and starting with language is an excellent idea!

LonginesPrime · 02/07/2023 22:17

Calling it gender ideology.

This is because calling it trans ideology both centres trans people and makes them feel like they're being attacked or like we object to their existence, when the issue is the very different way they understand gender as a concept. It makes it clearer that it's the belief system and not actual trans people's lives that is what's up for debate.

I also think that referring to gender ideology as something I don't subscribe to as opposed to telling people I'm gender critical has made me personally feel more comfortable about being more open about my beliefs. This is because declaring myself gender critical sounds like I've joined a new movement, which suggests that I've made a change and might therefore have decided wrong, whereas I want to make it clear that my views haven't changed at all and it's simply that I don't believe in this new ideology doing the rounds.

I also think it's really important to refer to it as an ideology because (1) it's under the category of belief that we receive protection under the Equality Act and (2) the sooner people accept that gender ideology is a belief and not a fact, the sooner they will realise that they're being incredibly unreasonable in trying to convert and bully others into believing what they believe.

On the same theme, I tend to use the term gender ideologues nowadays instead of TRAs, mainly because more of the people I come across tend to be non-trans proponents of gender ideology and the belief system has spread to a wider range of people.

I also feel gender ideologues is a more accurate description of the people pushing this stuff nowadays as I wouldn't class most of the people who have accepted gender ideology as activists at all; quite the contrary, I feel that many people have simply sleepwalked right into putting pronouns in their emails and changing their language without even really thinking about it too deeply at all.

I realise that gender ideologues get upset when you call it an ideology, but that's exactly what it is as it's based on faith and not science. It isn't falsifiable and by its very nature can never be proved as fact by science. There is nothing wrong with believing in whatever gender myths you fancy, but pushing your beliefs on others and bullying non-believers into submission is completely unacceptable, and referring to it as an ideology hammers this point home.

I also feel that referring to it as an ideology helps me to remember that even outside of the EA protections, I'm perfectly within my rights to resist religious conversion. No-one can force me to repent and accept gender ideology as fact, and framing it in these terms helps me to avoid some of the gaslighting as it helps me to recognise more clearly the situations where someone is bullying me for my lack of belief as examples of extreme religious zealotry.

GrumpyPanda · 02/07/2023 22:25

LonginesPrime · 02/07/2023 22:17

Calling it gender ideology.

This is because calling it trans ideology both centres trans people and makes them feel like they're being attacked or like we object to their existence, when the issue is the very different way they understand gender as a concept. It makes it clearer that it's the belief system and not actual trans people's lives that is what's up for debate.

I also think that referring to gender ideology as something I don't subscribe to as opposed to telling people I'm gender critical has made me personally feel more comfortable about being more open about my beliefs. This is because declaring myself gender critical sounds like I've joined a new movement, which suggests that I've made a change and might therefore have decided wrong, whereas I want to make it clear that my views haven't changed at all and it's simply that I don't believe in this new ideology doing the rounds.

I also think it's really important to refer to it as an ideology because (1) it's under the category of belief that we receive protection under the Equality Act and (2) the sooner people accept that gender ideology is a belief and not a fact, the sooner they will realise that they're being incredibly unreasonable in trying to convert and bully others into believing what they believe.

On the same theme, I tend to use the term gender ideologues nowadays instead of TRAs, mainly because more of the people I come across tend to be non-trans proponents of gender ideology and the belief system has spread to a wider range of people.

I also feel gender ideologues is a more accurate description of the people pushing this stuff nowadays as I wouldn't class most of the people who have accepted gender ideology as activists at all; quite the contrary, I feel that many people have simply sleepwalked right into putting pronouns in their emails and changing their language without even really thinking about it too deeply at all.

I realise that gender ideologues get upset when you call it an ideology, but that's exactly what it is as it's based on faith and not science. It isn't falsifiable and by its very nature can never be proved as fact by science. There is nothing wrong with believing in whatever gender myths you fancy, but pushing your beliefs on others and bullying non-believers into submission is completely unacceptable, and referring to it as an ideology hammers this point home.

I also feel that referring to it as an ideology helps me to remember that even outside of the EA protections, I'm perfectly within my rights to resist religious conversion. No-one can force me to repent and accept gender ideology as fact, and framing it in these terms helps me to avoid some of the gaslighting as it helps me to recognise more clearly the situations where someone is bullying me for my lack of belief as examples of extreme religious zealotry.

I strongly disagree with this because "gender ideology" is already taken - conservatives have been using it for a decade or two to denigrate women's lib, domestic violence legislation, abortion rights, and campaigns against the gender pay gap. I really really really don't want to be in that company, and it don't think it serves the GC cause. I could possibly be persuaded to talk about gender identity ideology, but personally I've been using "trans extremism."

BellaAmorosa · 02/07/2023 22:29

@LonginesPrime
Very astute points about using "gender ideology/ideologues". I will start to use those terms instead.

Plus another vote for just plain language. I personally say
men who claim to be women
and
women who claim to be men.

BellaAmorosa · 02/07/2023 22:31

@GrumpyPanda
I didn't know that. Are you talking about the UK?

LonginesPrime · 02/07/2023 22:36

That's interesting GrumpyPanda - I think I heard Stella O'Malley (or perhaps someone she was taking to) referring to gender identity ideology and I wondered why as it seemed like such a mouthful, so perhaps that's why.

I agree with the extremism part, but I haven't personally found referring to trans anything particularly helpful when trying to engage with people who might be receptive to discussion as I've found it immediately puts them on the defensive as they see my issue as being with trans people when in reality my issue is with the belief system and the way gender is being understood and handled.

I find that when I mention trans anything, I have to then explain that I don't want to eradicate trans people(!), as that's what a lot of the ideologues have been led to believe is gender critical people's mission.

Forwarder · 02/07/2023 22:43

@GrumpyPanda are you in the US?

OP posts:
NecessaryScene · 02/07/2023 22:44

I don't see the need to be so long-winded anyway. "Genderism" and "Genderists" work as accurate names for the religion and its adherents, and I tend to use those. (Or "Genderologist" when I'm feeling less serious).

Forwarder · 02/07/2023 22:47

An alternative to autogynaephilia and AGP would be good. Too many people think men claiming to be women are genuinely dysphoric. (Although not a few people seem to be peaked by the TUC employee on Twitter)

Autogynaephilia is an obscure mouthful. And it took me ages on FWR to work out what AGP stands for.

OP posts:
Forwarder · 02/07/2023 22:48

I like Genderists. Will use that one.

OP posts:
Forwarder · 02/07/2023 22:54

Trans identified male is a bit of a mouthful. But can't use the awful term transwoman. What else?

OP posts:
jackles · 02/07/2023 23:04

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

IcakethereforeIam · 02/07/2023 23:11

'Sex imitation treatment', instead of the nicey, nicely 'gender affirming care'. I've seen it used a couple of times and I think it's far more accurate.

AGP can still earn deletions, as can TiM. I think it depends on context. I would like an alternative to AGP. Once you know, you know but some don't know what it means.

PJRules · 02/07/2023 23:13

Would really love a work appropriate word for TW

I did think trans identifying male was accurate but possibly using the word 'male' for someone who does not want to be associated with maleness could be harassment.

Man who thinks he is a woman is probably worse 😬

If I was using it about a person I'd probably just say 'Lulabelle is trans' but if I'm talking about TW as a group what word can I use?

IcakethereforeIam · 02/07/2023 23:29

Dyphoric men?

LonginesPrime · 02/07/2023 23:29

IcakethereforeIam · 02/07/2023 23:11

'Sex imitation treatment', instead of the nicey, nicely 'gender affirming care'. I've seen it used a couple of times and I think it's far more accurate.

AGP can still earn deletions, as can TiM. I think it depends on context. I would like an alternative to AGP. Once you know, you know but some don't know what it means.

Presumably body modification is an acceptable term? That's an accurate description of what it is, after all.

Of course, as you say, it depends very much on context, but I've found body modding to work quite well when discussing appropriate age of consent, potential for regret, etc as it treats it more like what it actually is, and remind people that children can't get tattoos, etc.

I think body modification is also appropriate as it isn't changing anyone's biological sex and it moves away from it being about affirming or confirming anything - it's making the individual feel better about their body and making them feel more aesthetically pleasing to themselves, but that's about the extent of it. It isn't magic.

People often talk about gender affirmation treatment like it's some spiritual process of attaining a more authentic level of being, when really it's just body modification that people have done in various forms for years. If it makes an adult feel better about themselves then great. But I find that calling it what it actually is brings it firmly back to earth, and also highlights why it's probably not a great idea to let children have it done to them.

IcakethereforeIam · 02/07/2023 23:30

Sorry, dysphoric men.

howdoesatoastermaketoast · 02/07/2023 23:36

I think it's a good point about gender ideology rather than trans ideology, but if that phrase is taken that's clearly a bit of a problem.

Gender Identity Ideology - GI Ideology could work.

howdoesatoastermaketoast · 03/07/2023 00:10

saw this on twitter too insulting or just right?

Gendermentalism

BellaAmorosa · 03/07/2023 05:41

IcakethereforeIam · 02/07/2023 23:30

Sorry, dysphoric men.

Only a tiny fraction of the males are actually dysphoric, IMO. Far fewer than females. What I like about "men who claim to be women" or "men who say they are women" is that it is accurate and neutral.

@PJRules
I don't see why using the word "male" to refer to a male human being would be harassment. IANAL, but I would have thought that you'd have to go on and on about it, drag it into conversations when it wasn't relevant, or something like that. Harassment is a course of conduct.

BellaAmorosa · 03/07/2023 05:43

Hmm. Will have to think about AGP.

Hagosaurus · 03/07/2023 06:19

‘Gender affirming care’ definitely needs a new title -

‘experimental cross-sex hormones’,

‘Experimental drugs which permanently stop children’s sexual development’,

‘the surgical removal of healthy genitalia/breasts’

None of it is very snappy, we need something which clearly spells out what it actually means. I saw a very recent CBS article in which they are still quoting doctors claiming that puberty blockers are completely harmless

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trans-youth-gender-affirming-health-care-misinformation/

Gender-affirming care for trans youth: Separating medical facts from misinformation

Many states have passed or are considering restrictions on gender-affirming care for trans minors. Yet much of the discussion is based on misconceptions about what that care entails.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trans-youth-gender-affirming-health-care-misinformation/

Hagosaurus · 03/07/2023 06:22

AGP - a man presenting as female to satisfy a sexual fetish, again, not very snappy, but accurate

MmePoppySeedDefage · 03/07/2023 06:26

If anyone needs support for why language in this area needs to be restored here's a good example of how use of the word 'gender' instead of 'sex' leads to ridiculousness:

People of any gender can be pregnant, Bank of England states.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0ae0f936-178d-11ee-8fcc-23dc1e6b4441?shareToken=f9fd0973328a0f790881d75ade368dc22_

Silly Bank of England.