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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Time to take back language - a manifesto discussion thread

101 replies

Forwarder · 02/07/2023 20:59

One of the anti women lobby's key tools is language.

Okay, calling women non-men is, as yet, still a step too far. But much of their success is in redefing language.

I would like to suggest that MN FWR creates a new lexicon, that recentres the discussion on to women's rights. I realise this thread might get deleted, but worth a try.

What words and phrases do think need alternatives and what would you suggest?

OP posts:
Meadowfly · 03/07/2023 06:28

Woman, man, girl, boy, transvestite, child who thinks they are trans, cosmetic surgery, taking artificial hormones, fetish, mental health, counselling, therapy.

Woman2023 · 03/07/2023 07:38

Forwarder · 02/07/2023 22:54

Trans identified male is a bit of a mouthful. But can't use the awful term transwoman. What else?

Man.

Or

Man who says he's a woman.

BettyFilous · 03/07/2023 08:27

Was it Naomi Cunningham who referred to “erotic crossdressers” when giving evidence to the Scottish Parliament? That covers off AGP in a clear and unambiguous way.

FrancescaContini · 03/07/2023 08:33

howdoesatoastermaketoast · 03/07/2023 00:10

saw this on twitter too insulting or just right?

Gendermentalism

Pretty accurate.

Interesting thread, thank you for starting it.

No more “top/bottom surgery” - “double mastectomy” and the medical equivalent for the other one should be used.

PomegranateOfPersephone · 03/07/2023 08:43

Meadowfly · 03/07/2023 06:28

Woman, man, girl, boy, transvestite, child who thinks they are trans, cosmetic surgery, taking artificial hormones, fetish, mental health, counselling, therapy.

Yes definitely, all of this!

PomegranateOfPersephone · 03/07/2023 08:50

I would say gender identity ideology or gender identity theory/philosophy.

As others have said “gender ideology” is a bit more ambiguous, it could refer to feminist use of the word “gender” developed in the second half of the 20th century to describe cultural ideas of what it means to be a woman or a man.

I don’t like to use the term gender critical if I can help it either. I prefer to explain my opinions in more detail rather than use short hand because I find that so many people misunderstand the terms, which is likely a feature and not a bug.

PomegranateOfPersephone · 03/07/2023 08:54

Woman2023 · 03/07/2023 07:38

Man.

Or

Man who says he's a woman.

👏👏👏

Absolutely this!

Ofcourseshecan · 03/07/2023 09:01

I’ve seen my comments deleted when I mentioned trans-identifying people, or mutilating surgery. Are these still forbidden on Mumsnet?

Ofcourseshecan · 03/07/2023 09:07

I use genderism, or gender ideology. On Mumsnet I sometimes call myself gender-critical or GC because people here know what it means. But I don’t otherwise, because it needs explaining.

I say I know humans can’t change sex (even with the help of harmful and expensive drugs and/or surgery), and gender identity is just a personal choice to perform sex-stereotypes associated with the other sex. Long-winded but clear!

Moomoola · 03/07/2023 09:07

Agree with ‘man who says he’s a woman’.
I heard someone say,’man who pretends he’s a woman’ , which I think is even better.

Moomoola · 03/07/2023 09:10

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/07/2023 09:13

I strongly disagree with this because "gender ideology" is already taken - conservatives have been using it for a decade or two to denigrate women's lib, domestic violence legislation, abortion rights, and campaigns against the gender pay gap. I really really really don't want to be in that company, and it don't think it serves the GC cause. I could possibly be persuaded to talk about gender identity ideology, but personally I've been using "trans extremism."

YY, but I do call it "gender identity ideology" and I have since about 2017, for the same reason as LonginesPrime, like her I think framing it as an ideology is important.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/07/2023 09:15

Genderism or transgenderism also work but to the uninitiated it's not always clear what they mean.

viques · 03/07/2023 09:18

FrancescaContini · 03/07/2023 08:33

Pretty accurate.

Interesting thread, thank you for starting it.

No more “top/bottom surgery” - “double mastectomy” and the medical equivalent for the other one should be used.

surgical penis

surgical vagina

LonginesPrime · 03/07/2023 09:43

Yes, great thread, OP - it's great to be able to discuss the terms we've been using and our rationale and to be able to stress-test them like this. Very helpful indeed!

I would say gender identity ideology or gender identity theory/philosophy.

In recent years I've been inclined to move away from saying "the theory of gender identity" because to me, it makes it sound far more scientific than it actually is, and to me "theory" implies that it has been subject to rigorous scientific debate for a sustained period, like the theory of evolution.

I noticed gender identity ideologues were referring to social scientists' and philosophers' work when saying "the science on gender is settled", when that's not the science I would expect to see if we're relying on it for irreversible medical treatments. I feel describing inner gender identity as a "theory" can dupe people into believing there is far more support in the medical and scientific communities for gender identity ideology than there actually is.

On the face of it, I like the notion of calling it a "philosophy" as it feeds into the EA protected characteristic of philosophical belief so it alerts people to the kind of thing it might be (i.e. a belief and not a fact).

But the reason I personally prefer ideology over philosophy is because the way it is described and promoted and pushed on people resembles emotion-driven religious zealotry far more closely than it resembles a philosophical notion, which sounds far more chill and academic. Obviously, gender identity ideology would be classed in law as a philosophical belief as opposed to a religious belief if (when?) it eventually ends up having to be defined as a protected characteristic in law. But that obviously won't happen until gender ideologues accept that it's a belief and not a fact, so I think we have a bit of a way to go on that.

HelenaTranscart · 03/07/2023 09:49

So if "people of any gender can be pregnant" I wonder how the Bank of England would respond if a so-called "transwoman" (i.e. a bloke) on their staff asked for maternity leave or paid time off to be a gestational surrogate. Honestly, the wokerati who formulate these horsesh*t policies need to catch a train to reality.

I think I might just write to the Bank of England and tell them what I think rather than just ranting about it in here. It's time our voices were heard and, as someone much smarter than me said, "they can't fire us all".

FemaleAndLearning · 03/07/2023 09:49

I rarely call myself gender critical unless at work and quoting Forstater! I use gender identity ideology, again it is longer but more explanatory. I'm not part of that belief system and shouldn't be forced down it or compelled to go along with it. I've been told I have a gender identity because everyone does and had an onslaught when I calmly explained I do not.

Erotic cross dresser still sounds too kind for the AGPs we are seeing have a good old you know what in the women's toilets and changing rooms. They are invaders doing this in public. Fine in their own homes but they have took this to women's spaces.
Perverts in dresses wanking in changing rooms is a bit long winded and will get deleted.
Autogynephile is accurate but people need to be bothered to Google it and we should avoid AGP as it is an abbreviation.

We should just use the definition, it takes more words but we want clear language. A man who is sexually aroused by the thought of himself as a female.

I correct hormone replacement therapy to taking wrong sex hormones.

PomegranateOfPersephone · 03/07/2023 09:52

I do accept your points @LonginesPrime that ideology is a more accurate way to describe what we are seeing and experiencing but it is a word which can be perceived as carrying negative connotations.

Sometimes, depending on who I am discussing with, I want to use a softer term than ideology.

Sometimes I will say gender identity/queer theory because the two are distinct but often found together, particularly in institutional capture.

I agree that eventually when it is correctly categorised it will probably be in law as gender identity philosophy. Despite the fact that it is fairly incoherent as far as actual philosophy goes.

FemaleAndLearning · 03/07/2023 10:02

It's quite impossible. Those who go along with gender identity ideology do not see it as a theory or a belief. They see it as fact even though it is in someone's head. I used the softer term belief at work and got berated. But what is us it if not a belief. I had training the other day on gender identity that said we no longer use changing from one sex to the other we use becoming ones true self! How the hell is that not a belief! Again, fine gave that idea/belief/though process but don't expect others to go along with it!

Appalonia · 03/07/2023 10:17

I've seen 'gender affirming surgery'' referred to as 'gender falsification surgery', which I think is more accurate ( although I still don't like the use of the word 'gender' ).

Abhannmor · 03/07/2023 10:32

From the OPs post - 'anti-women's lobby' is nice and clear.

IcakethereforeIam · 03/07/2023 10:34

How about 'gender zealot' instead of tra? Being an activist can still have a cachet and they're not for 'rights', they're for 'wants' or 'demands'. Zealotry doesn't have the same good vibes. So, gender zealotry for the movement, gender zealot (or zealout) for the individual. I think it also alludes to the 4-letter 'c' word we're not allowed to use (although imo it's accurate, not 'cunt')

Regarding 'dysphoric men'. I know most aren't but I'm trying to think of something that won't get deleted, so it has to sound vaguely sympathetic. It emphasises that they are 'men' and that it's a psychological thing.

LonginesPrime · 03/07/2023 13:14

I do accept your points @LonginesPrime that ideology is a more accurate way to describe what we are seeing and experiencing but it is a word which can be perceived as carrying negative connotations.

Sometimes, depending on who I am discussing with, I want to use a softer term than ideology.

Sometimes I will say gender identity/queer theory because the two are distinct but often found together, particularly in institutional capture.

That a good point, PomegranateOfPersephone and I absolutely agree that a crucial part of being able to discuss this stuff and encourage people to perhaps consider things from a different perspective is knowing your audience.

And as FemaleAndLearning points out, people who see gender identity as fact can get very upset hearing it called a belief. I can see how this is probably partly where the notion that we are trying to deny trans people's very existence comes from, because I'm coming at it from the perspective of "you believe what you believe and I believe what I believe and we should be able to respect each other" but they tend see it more along the lines of "I don't believe the way you live your life is valid and you're just plain wrong". I think that because they don't realise it's a belief system, they take my lack of belief as a direct criticism of their life choices.

I can absolutely understand why someone who's made irreversible medical decisions for their own body or that of their child desperately needs to stick to the idea that gender identity ideology is a scientific fact and not a belief. I can't imagine the internal conflict a trans person or parent of a trans child must experience once they start to entertain the question of whether gender identity ideology might be just one of many ways to interpret the human condition and deal with psychological distress, and that there might be other feasible interpretations of the situation that don't require the interventions you believed (or were told) were absolutely medically necessary at the time.

There are certainly times when I find gender identity is better described in less explicit terms to ensure people will continue to listen (or to avoid people misinterpreting your words as hateful because they have been led to believe such terms are intended as hateful). And I think that discussing it with parents of trans kids or with trans people themselves does often need to be handled far more sensitively than the way I might speak about gender identity ideology on MN, or in a hypothetical debate or in a response to a government consultation or in legal documents or in other more formal settings.

In general conversation, I sometimes say "I don't believe in gendered souls" and then let the other person explain how it's not a soul in the religious sense, and then I just curiously probe what they actually mean (in an effort to genuinely understand their thinking, not in bad faith or to trap them or anything), and ask them how I, as a non-believer in souls, am supposed to reconcile my belief that souls don't exist with a belief in an inner sense of gender that sounds very much like the description of a soul from my Christian upbringing. It's not physical but it's more than simply a medical or psychological phenomenon; it somehow transcends the physical and the medical and psychological, but is not spiritual in the religious sense, so what exactly is it, and why don't I perceive it in myself the way they do?

It's always an interesting discussion and I've never found that anyone I've said "I don't believe in gendered souls" has taken me to be trolling them or trying to be hateful. I'm just trying to understand their position and to explain to them why mine is different.

Like many of you, I'm very happy to discuss people's individual beliefs on gender identity with them and while obviously gender identity ideology is alarming and extremely dangerous for lots of vulnerable groups, I also find this whole movement absolutely fascinating from a human perspective - not just in terms of the psychological and sociological aspects, but in terms of the political and legal issues, philosophical and religious issues, the various economic factors, the advancement of medical technology, linguistic power, the lot. It's terrible, obviously, and my heart goes out to everyone on all sides caught up in this in various ways. But it's also incredibly interesting and valuable as a study of humanity.

PurpleBugz · 03/07/2023 13:30

Vagina

I have seen some really offensive terms for the result of a vaginoplasty. I don't wish to be offensive but it's not a vagina and should not be called vagina. To me personally calling that a vagina is offensive

Babdoc · 03/07/2023 13:42

It’s not a vagina, PurpleBugz. It’s an artificial surgical fistula created following bilateral orchidectomy (castration) and penile inversion.
Or, if the unfortunate patient has been on puberty blockers and there is insufficient genital mucosa to work with, it’s a transplanted section of bowel.
Either way, it requires regular dilatation to stop it healing shut, and is prone to infections, as it’s a blind ending tube lacking the normal immune function and secretions of a vagina.
Calling such a surgical wound a vagina - a birth canal, with its amazing role in childbirth - is indeed an insult to women.