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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Is anyone else finding being gender critical has affected their mental health?

266 replies

BluebellBlueballs · 02/07/2023 14:10

Maybe I need to take a step back but that feels like capitulation.
I just feel I am being persecuted for my beliefs.
Two people in my life one a sibling one a friend, both men, have washed their hands of me completely after finding out I joined women's gender critical networks.

Told I'm in a hate group etc.

I used to be quite open about being GC because I didn't think I was doing anything wrong. I guess I thought of it as like joining extinction rebellion or something, OK some people don't want it forced down their throats but no need to lie or hide my activities. But it's not like that at all.

I've had a sort of mh crisis over being cut off by people close to me, and others not so close to me, for having what I see as a difference of an opinion over TWAW. But I'm being made to feel like I've joined the ku klux klan.

Sometimes I wonder if its worth it any more but that's how this movement seems to operate, by shaming the heretics into silence.

Can anyone relate?

OP posts:
ArabeIIaScott · 04/07/2023 15:31

Also 'groomer' is not a necessarily a slur, anymore than 'paedophile. It's a descriptive term for a person who is grooming people. It can of course be used falsely, but fo suggest that one can't use the term when it's being accurately applied is dangerously undermining. We need to be able to name safeguarding issues when we see them. If someone is grooming then they are a groomer.

It is very important that people don't try to make the language that we need to report and call out abuse into forbidden language. For obvious reasons.

Helleofabore · 04/07/2023 15:33

MerlinsLostMarbles · 04/07/2023 15:21

"TRA is an obviously handy abbreviation for Trans Activist."

It seems to be used to refer to anyone who isn't a gender critical, i.e. most of the population.

Cis and cisgender are valid English words with cis going back to Ancient Rome, TRA is just an acronym made-up by gender criticals.

You are again deliberately using dehumanising language.

Do you remember the effect that using that language has had on your ability to dismiss violence against women that you disagree with?

Yet, you continue.

Just as you continue to dismiss violent acts against women you disagree with.

NotHavingIt · 04/07/2023 15:33

I'd advise people to keep off twitter. I do look in, but never get involved myself. It really is bad for mental health in so many ways. Those people in the public eye who do have an account have to be very disciplined in their use of it., or esle it can destroy them.

Wiccan · 04/07/2023 15:40

MerlinsLostMarbles · 03/07/2023 23:33

Nothing at all, and I don't think anyone has ever been estranged from family or friends just for saying that.

It's all the accusations of grooming, the stalking, the hate, threats etc that gives the gender critical movement a rather bad name.

But we are losing friends and family because of this ideology and it's the whole point of the thread . It's reality for me. some of the everyday normal logical thinking people I know are buying into this shit and others are pretending to agree to it just so they don't get pulled up on it at work or lose their jobs ! .

dimorphism · 04/07/2023 15:43

It is very important that people don't try to make the language that we need to report and call out abuse into forbidden language. For obvious reasons.

THIS and you have to ask yourself what sort of person wants to make it impossible for women to talk about abuse of children?

Hiddenmnetter · 04/07/2023 15:43

@Hagosaurus I would so love to meet someone who did believe in GI and was prepared to discuss it - unfortunately so far, it’s either been abuse or a tacit agreement to not talk about it for fear of upsetting them. As far as I can see, GC is the only position which makes any sense. I would generally want to test my position with robust debate, but sadly, that’s not an option here

So what you’re essentially after is called the “principle of charity”- where you ascribe to your opponent the most convincing and coherent account of their argument you can. Then you need to see if your understanding of being GC can answer the best possible case of gender identity theory.

To do this you need to understand not just gender identity theory but identity theory in general and to see where it’s come from and how it works. This comes out of an idea called “subjectivity”- I.e.: reality as it is, in itself, is inaccessible. All we can really know is our own experience of reality.

if this is the case, and reality as it appears is all we can access but not reality as it is in itself (phenomenal reality as opposed to noumenal reality) then we are left with some issues about how we can know reality. This is the foundation of subjectivity, and it’s origins and history are both fascinating and LONG (stretching back to the pre-socratics).

If subjectivity is to be believed, then the leaps become more obvious: what is my being a man or woman? I can give an account of my own experience, but am unable to give an account of anyone else.

even worse- the language that I use to think and give my account is tainted by other people- there are those “cultural elites” who control language and thought in society, and thus to a large degree control narrative by controlling language. This is called post-structuralism.

Therefore, whatever you call man or woman, may, or may not have anything to do with what being a man or woman really is, because ultimately your experience is closed to anyone who is not you, and therefore the idea that you can define “man-ness” and “woman-ness” comes down to the great catastrophe that you just can’t know.

therefore your assertion of a scientific definition of man and woman as the two dimorphic parts of the species “homosapiens” is just you falling prey to those who wish to control you with their own language and ideas, and have failed to permit you to express your own subjective reality. And further your attempt to control the meaning of “man” and “woman” is just you oppressing me with your cultural position of power (living in a heteronormative society and culture, using heteronormative language).

That is, in my experience, the most convincing trans identity argument I can construct. I disagree with it, but if you wanted an argument to get on with it’s the best I have seen.

Wiccan · 04/07/2023 15:51

YellowBrickWall · 04/07/2023 15:06

@MerlinsLostMarbles

I don't think anyone has ever been estranged from family or friends just for saying that.

It's all the accusations of grooming, the stalking, the hate, threats etc that gives the gender critical movement a rather bad name.

I categorically did not accuse my son of grooming, stalk him, hate him or threaten him.

I told him that he was free to believe whatever he wanted but that I did not hold the same beliefs. I told him about my concerns for women's rights and how I had held these views all my life. They were not new. They were not because of him. I told him I loved and supported him.

But he still cut me off because I could not agree that he was a woman.

I was happy to believe that he believed he was a woman but that I couldn't share that belief as it's my belief that humans can't change sex.

Many TRAs would call that transphobia, hate speech, far right, accuse me of genocide and call me a nazi. That is what we face when we state simple truth.

It does happen. Maybe you haven't experienced it but I don't think you can make the statement that GC woman are treated badly because of their actions. It's not our actions, it's our beliefs.

I don't believe humans can change sex. That's it. No harassing, no name calling, no shouting or fighting. You claim that someone wouldn't become estranged because of it but they do. And that's why I said you were wrong about this.

We are being gaslighted which affects our mental health and that's what this thread is about.

(I had a thread about my experience about a year ago if you care to look at it. And yes, I am still kindly looking after his cat and storing his stuff for him. Even though he wants nothing to do with me. Go figure.)

Absolutely this ^

YellowBrickWall · 04/07/2023 16:09

MerlinsLostMarbles · 04/07/2023 15:10

@YellowBrickWall, I didn't make any accusations or implications against you personally. However content on Twitter and hate sites such as kiwifarms shows there is a lot of anti-LGBT hate coming from "gender criticals". It's not making your movement look good.

Since Elon Musk took over Twitter it's became even worse, with gender criticals taking photos of transwomen in public without consent, uploading them, sharing them and then making very vile hateful comments on them.

That is not what this thread is about. OP is talking about ordinary, respectful conversations face to face with close family, friends and colleagues.

Yes there is a lot of abuse hurled on twitter. From all aspects. Lots of name calling, lots of accusations and lots of demands. It's not helpful to use that as a reason for not listening to what women are actually saying about their rights.

The concerns that women have are starting to be tested in courts now and they are being validated. The people who are listening to respectful debate understand women's concerns.

They are starting to make legal precedent. For example, the gender critical belief that sex is immutable and sex matters and is WORIADS and a protected belief.

I was just responding to your comment that no-one becomes estranged just for stating that there are two sexes and humans can't change sex. That statement was incorrect, as I took the time to point out.

Yeval · 04/07/2023 16:36

Just to echo what pp have said and the original thread subject, 3 close friends withdrew their friendship because I refused to say that a man who says he's not a man is no longer a man.

difficultspaghetti · 04/07/2023 16:59

I don't openly talk about my GC views because I don't want to be cast out of society but it definitely affects my mental health. My own experiences with men and hatred for women makes me think extremely negative thoughts and hearing about all the support for men posing as women while spewing vitriol towards actual women is terrifying. Women will never be respected, whether supportive of the trans movement or not. Any support I see for us is simply performative and does not translate to reality.

ImaniMumsnet · 04/07/2023 21:59

Hi everyone, can we get some peace and love on this thread please?

RealityFan · 04/07/2023 22:02

ImaniMumsnet · 04/07/2023 21:59

Hi everyone, can we get some peace and love on this thread please?

I'm afraid it's in short supply atm.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 04/07/2023 22:16

ImaniMumsnet · 04/07/2023 21:59

Hi everyone, can we get some peace and love on this thread please?

To be fair, the majority of posts have been of a thoughtful and sensitive nature with women sharing experiences with other women. There've only been a few snarky unpleasant comments and they're quite predictable.

Waitwhat23 · 04/07/2023 22:17

Given there seems to be very few deletions on this thread, it can be presumed by the interjection by MNHQ that the entire thread is being reported. It seems to be a running theme at the moment.

I've had to take periodic breaks from here and elsewhere recently due to the increasingly virulent rhetoric from those who frame women's rights as 'anti trans'

On the other hand, in real life, increasing amounts of people are becoming vocal about what's going on. I had a conversation last week with someone I assumed would be very TWAW but as the conversation continued, it became very obvious that she was both very gender critical and very well informed. The increasingly desperate foot stamping online is in direct opposition to what is happening irl.

NegevNights · 04/07/2023 22:24

Actually @ImaniMumsnet if you're going to delete one of my posts on this thread, please will you delete the lot? I feel exposed now. Thanks.

Waitwhat23 · 04/07/2023 22:27

Sorry, @NegevNights my intention wasn't to highlight your deletion. There's been biscuit emojis deleted before now so I don't necessarily read much into deletions.

NegevNights · 04/07/2023 22:32

Waitwhat23 · 04/07/2023 22:27

Sorry, @NegevNights my intention wasn't to highlight your deletion. There's been biscuit emojis deleted before now so I don't necessarily read much into deletions.

It's OK, it's not you, @Waitwhat23 Flowers

I'm glad you drew attention to it tbh.

RealityFan · 04/07/2023 22:40

Sorry?! There are deletions over biscuit emojis? You are kidding, yes?

EarthSight · 04/07/2023 22:45

Sorry to hear this, although when I heard about the two men in your life cutting you out, I did think 'fuckity-bye then'. They don't like women advocating fot heir rights it seems.

Waitwhat23 · 04/07/2023 22:51

RealityFan · 04/07/2023 22:40

Sorry?! There are deletions over biscuit emojis? You are kidding, yes?

Nope. There has been at least one post deleted because of a biscuit emoji being used (nothing else in the post, just the emoji) that I know of. I personally had a post deleted for using the word peak.

agent765 · 04/07/2023 23:02

Waitwhat23 · 04/07/2023 22:17

Given there seems to be very few deletions on this thread, it can be presumed by the interjection by MNHQ that the entire thread is being reported. It seems to be a running theme at the moment.

I've had to take periodic breaks from here and elsewhere recently due to the increasingly virulent rhetoric from those who frame women's rights as 'anti trans'

On the other hand, in real life, increasing amounts of people are becoming vocal about what's going on. I had a conversation last week with someone I assumed would be very TWAW but as the conversation continued, it became very obvious that she was both very gender critical and very well informed. The increasingly desperate foot stamping online is in direct opposition to what is happening irl.

I also take the odd break for the sake of my mental health but have also noticed more people waking up and smelling the BS the 'other' side spouts.

Maybe we should all threaten suicide - I've certainly felt suicidal at times despite no longer being directly affected (I'm disabled so I no longer use the Ladies and my daughter runs her own business by her own rules).

IcakethereforeIam · 04/07/2023 23:07

@agent765 Flowers I hope you don't find this patronising Smile I suspect the world is a better place for having you in it.

I had a post deleted for calling someone 'petal'Grin

RufustheSpecuIatingreindeer · 04/07/2023 23:11

RealityFan · 04/07/2023 22:40

Sorry?! There are deletions over biscuit emojis? You are kidding, yes?

Nope

someone was deleted on fwr for posting the biscuit…only on fwr mind

and for yawn

and bless

and cartoons

all sorts…on fwr

RufustheSpecuIatingreindeer · 04/07/2023 23:13

I think the biscuir deletion pissed me off most of all

its mumsnet own emoji…it literally means no comment

its not rude or not in the spirit

honestly beyond me why it was deleted and what sort of [redacted] person would report it in the first place

Yeval · 04/07/2023 23:15

ImaniMumsnet · 04/07/2023 21:59

Hi everyone, can we get some peace and love on this thread please?

Sorry, but what does this even mean?

We're having serious and thoughtful discussions about an extremely topical issue that affects women all over the world. What on earth do you mean, peace and love?

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