Elliot Page documentary

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Apologies if there’s already a thread about this. I searched but we all know what Mumsnet search functionality is like!

I’m watching the Elliot Page documentary on the BBC and I’m struck by how sad and depressed he seems. Has anyone else seen it? It’s such an awkward interview because the interviewer has a permanent grin on her face like she’s trying not to laugh!

If anyone wants to see how women’s abs look after putting in the time in the gym google Alicia Vikander Tomb Raider and thank me later… god she was fit in that film.

I actually think that's quite an articulate way of describing how puberty can feel to some girls (it definitely resonated with me.) I probably wouldn't have thought to describe it like that but I definitely recognise the frustration at the lack of control. At the unhealthy end of the spectrum I think that used to manifest in anorexia/self harm etc. At the more harmless end it would lead to e.g. the teenage witch phase, deliberately pissing of parents.
The mistake is not in recognising that feeling but in thinking it's possible to buy a solution.

I’ve come across a few people who just expect doctors to ‘fix things’ and I think puberty has become part of that. The idea that if girls just don’t want to go through it, doctors should just fix that, without anything long term thought. I know someone who wanted puberty blockers because their (probably autistic) daughter wanted to use a male name and found it traumatic.

I think there needs to be much more education around puberty. I think there should be more allowances made as well, especially with school.

Totally agree, CheeseBandit. Puberty freaked me out for lots of reasons. If I’d known that what was happening to my body was ok and normal, and that my feelings were also normal, it would have been a lot better. I felt like someone had taken over my body. It was awful - and not helped by misinformation from my peers.

Girls should be educated about the emotional side of puberty not just the physical side. They should be helped to understand they’re not alone and their feelings are normal, and part of a journey.

Can Hollywood tell the truth?

Or is it all just another PR opportunity and publicity stunt to get your name out there?

And if you haven't got a dramatic story full of trauma you just aren't doing it right and aren't saleable?

I am pretty sure those abs are fake, they don't look real at all to me, for a man or a woman.

But it is very weird that escaping feminine expectations for body and clothes seems to require just as much body modification and conforming as doing the female hollywood thing.

But it is very weird that escaping feminine expectations for body and clothes seems to require just as much body modification and conforming as doing the female hollywood thing.

that’s so true, it’s really just another “women! Pay ££££££ to change your body so you fit in” but just with an ideal masculine aesthetic instead of feminine. And not the same pressure on males. Funny that.

However there are women, like Ellen degeneres and mae Martin (except mae is now a they, but before that) who do masculine/butch woman and are in the public eye and successful. See also kd lang, Lena waithe, Lea Delaria. I’m sure it’s very difficult though, and increasingly so now.

Very good point.

Also that men wanting to be perceived as women can just change name and hey presto. Alex Drummond and Alex drummonds beard come to mind. <am aware Alex didnt change name.
Those pesky double standards yet again.

I saw this photo on Twitter and thought it really exposed the “passing” lie - look at the heights. I know some men are short before anyone says that. But I’ve rarely seen a photo where even a short man just looks like a tiny version of a man. Usually a short man still has a male build and presence.

Which is the bigger lie?

1. EP is a man
2. EP is happy

Page is going to look like a tiny wizened little man. They're in their mid 30s and in recent photos seems to have quite dry, lined skin. Perhaps it's just natural aging, perhaps it's wrong sex hormones, perhaps something else. In an industry that values youth though, it's not a good look.

https://unherd.com/2023/06/how-elliot-page-escaped-womanhood/

'Page describes the age of 11 as “the age I sensed a shift from boy to girl without my consent”.'

'Page describes the age of 11 as “the age I sensed a shift from boy to girl without my consent”.'

I remember feeling like this too. The start of puberty was when I realised with a jolt that I wasn’t ever going to wake up and finally be a boy - and I realised I’d been somehow assuming I would at some level, without consciously realising it. I was a tomboy, and felt that should be a boy, but the reasons for that I can now see were because I was into science and outdoorsy stuff and boys got to do more of the stuff I wanted to do - plus a horrible dysfunctional childhood involving CSA that made me not feel at home in my body.

Many women report having gone through a stage like this, wanting to be a boy and having to come terms with not being - and then finding their way to be the kind of woman they want to be and being happy as a woman. Especially tomboys, lesbians and misfits of various kinds. It’s hardly surprising that you’d want to be the sex you perceive having more fun and opportunities (and the same for feminine boys who are drawn to “girly” stuff). It’s not evidence of being trans at all, it’s evidence of a sexist society and polarised gender roles.

If Page thinks that they are ever going to be accepted as a male within their peer group of other males (if they have one), they are absolutely wrong.
There is no way a group of men would act the same way they otherwise would if Page is with them. No way.
And there is no way they would be accepted as a man with a straight woman looking for a man.
I can't help but think they have doomed themselves to a weird kind of living limbo in which they can never fit in with any group.
How could that possibly bring "joy" to them?

I can't help but think they have doomed themselves to a weird kind of living limbo in which they can never fit in with any group.

And this may be why there’s such an emphasis on having a trans community or trans family and people end up relying on that for support. Of course I’m sure that can be real and much-needed support from people who can relate to you - but it often seems to make it hard to admit to doubts or regret and lose that support.

Sorry that was meant to be in quotes not bold

How could that possibly bring "joy" to them?

I find the whole use of "joy" and "euphoria" so much is really weird and a bit creepy. I can't quite imagine adults talking that way in any other contexts that aren't also weird.

Would we have to celebrate these peoples decisions or IDs, and adjust our worldview to accept decisions without question if they became Scientologists or Moonies or Quakers or atheists or humanists etc?

Celebrate them if they declared they had Multiple Personality Disorder or Autism?

If they revealed they were left handed or into Macramé?

Or announced they were an Arsenal or Liverpool fan?

Or opined they were Labour or Tory voters?

No? So just why the fuck do we have to tiptoe around Page because of this "journey"? And critically abandon our own critical decision making in this one area of life, this one declared choice?

But in order to pass as a transman a female has to persistently elevate her testosterone levels hugely beyond the normal female range for years. If a normal female range is 1-2 at most, their testosterone levels on treatment are regularly 20-30 or more. To do that to your body for so long with such a powerful hormone inevitably comes at a heavy cost. All to achieve a desired aesthetic ☹️

Thinking about it, most transmen I’ve seen/the ones I know have beards or the start of a beard, and it’s unusual for a trans man to be as slim as Page too - so you’re not even seeing what you normally register as a trans man, let alone a passing one. But it’s also probably harder for Page having been well-known as a feminine-looking woman - that’s going to be lodged in people’s heads.

I agree some TM really do pass completely, especially if the voice change has been fully effective. But that must bring its own issues as regards who is attracted to you and what they’re expecting, and the ability to relate to men. There was that upsetting video recently by a TM who just felt alone and unable to handle how men interacted and hadn’t realised how actually being seen as a man would feel - being distrusted and avoided by women and so on.