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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Elliot Page documentary

154 replies

SignalLow · 21/06/2023 14:58

Apologies if there’s already a thread about this. I searched but we all know what Mumsnet search functionality is like!

I’m watching the Elliot Page documentary on the BBC and I’m struck by how sad and depressed he seems. Has anyone else seen it? It’s such an awkward interview because the interviewer has a permanent grin on her face like she’s trying not to laugh!

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NutellaEllaElla · 21/06/2023 22:34

I hope so much that they are as happy as all that. But I worry about future suicide.

IcakethereforeIam · 21/06/2023 22:38

I saw a youtuber, detrans, I think it was Isaac, I can't recall his YouTube name. Commenting on another YouTube, a transman, giving advice to gender confused kids. It was something along the lines of 'how do I know I'm trans?' (fu answer - if you're asking then you're probably trans).

Anyway, she was saying how important it was to have affirmation from everyone else, to stop the doubts, to keep you from desisting.

I've seen it stated numerous times the love bombing that comes along with any sniff of a trans identity.

I think Page needs it. The external affirmation, the noise that keeps the doubts at bay. All feeding into each other. Drowning out reality. If a tree is trans in a forest and nobody is there to validate it, it'll just be a tree.

NotBadConsidering · 21/06/2023 22:46

Does the documentary mention Page’s three year marriage? I was shocked by the recent Guardian article that documented Page’s history of relationships but didn’t mention Page’s wife.

HatThatWearsYou · 21/06/2023 22:54

NotBadConsidering · 21/06/2023 22:46

Does the documentary mention Page’s three year marriage? I was shocked by the recent Guardian article that documented Page’s history of relationships but didn’t mention Page’s wife.

I thought the marriage fell apart after Page's transition?

CurseYouPerryThePlatypus · 21/06/2023 23:30

Didn’t know about this, thank you. Happened to watch a couple of YouTube videos about EP yesterday, it’s all just so tragic. So, so let down at a young age.

NotBadConsidering · 21/06/2023 23:41

HatThatWearsYou · 21/06/2023 22:54

I thought the marriage fell apart after Page's transition?

Yes, so you’d think an article about Page’s history of relationships would include this. But it didn’t. So I wonder if the documentary does.

I’m interested to know why Page’s ex-wife Emma Portner is never mentioned. Is it at Portner’s request? Or is it part of the Page narrative to conveniently ignore that Page was in a seemingly happy gay marriage that Page’s transition broke?

By the gender belief system, Page is now a straight man.

HatThatWearsYou · 22/06/2023 00:04

NotBadConsidering · 21/06/2023 23:41

Yes, so you’d think an article about Page’s history of relationships would include this. But it didn’t. So I wonder if the documentary does.

I’m interested to know why Page’s ex-wife Emma Portner is never mentioned. Is it at Portner’s request? Or is it part of the Page narrative to conveniently ignore that Page was in a seemingly happy gay marriage that Page’s transition broke?

By the gender belief system, Page is now a straight man.

Oh yes, sorry, I see what you mean now

miri1985 · 22/06/2023 01:02

Since reading Hadley Freeman's book Good Girls, whenever I see Elliot Page I think of this quote from it

"In other words, anorexia is not a desire to be thin – it’s a desire to look ill"

I don't think Elliot Page actually wants to be a man. I think EP wants to look unwell and transition is celebrated in a way that anorexia never would be. If EP looked like this without saying the magical words "I'm trans" people would be massively concerned about EP looking so ill

Backstreets · 22/06/2023 01:39

trans joy is joy like trans women are women by the look of it

the milo case is just tragic. How the hell did society devolve into destroying healthy bodies because of fucking tumblr posts. Poor girl. Only 22 and a lifetime of consequences ahead. Page was, at least, an adult, even though I don’t find her surgeries any more ethical.

BadNomad · 22/06/2023 01:44

I feel it's less about wanting to be a man and more about not wanting to be a woman because being a woman has only brought pain to Elliot.

BezMills · 22/06/2023 06:11

I really do hope for the best for Elliot Page. I think you're right @BadNomad and I'd also add not wanting to be a grown-up. In their own words, just wanting to be a 10yo boy.

I mean I actually was a 10yo boy and it's great, much better in many ways than being an adolescent! I believe it's not uncommon for those who experienced trauma to want to go back to the last time they felt safe and normal, which for Elliot, seems like 10. Like they associated all the assaults and abuse (+ external and internalised homophobia) with puberty and it all got rolled up into one big ball of pain.

Hey I want to be 13 and in the Scouts with computer games and warhammer, sometimes, or 21 and at University. But there's no way back, we are where we are and our health is the most precious thing. It's desperately sad that EP might have traded that for whatever she has now, which doesn't look like joy to me.

FannyCann · 22/06/2023 07:01

Madcats · 21/06/2023 15:47

Page is giving off the vibes of somebody who has just had some really bad news and is trying to hold it together. The eyes look "dead".

Tenuously linked, but I have just been watching a video posted by "Milo" who featured in a 2016 MTV documentary called "Transformation" and has just decided to stop taking testosterone.

The original doc is here:

Turns out Milo is in the Daily Mail today - it was all a big mistake.
I wonder if/when Jazz Jennings will work out transitioning for TV entertainment isn't a great idea.

Trans poster-child from 2016 MTV show reemerges, regretting hormones

mol.im/a/12219343

RedToothBrush · 22/06/2023 07:50

DH was talking about hearing something about Page and being shocked. Something about trying it on with a woman who was in a relationship and then having sex in the wardrobe in a hotel because they were scared of housekeeping coming in. Then something about trying it on with numerous other women. DHs reaction was it was acting in a stereotypical male sexually aggressive way and that the sex in the wardrobe was all about the thrill of doing something they shouldn't rather than a real risk of somehow being 'caught'. He found it all really disturbing. And obvious that there was a history of trauma in there. And wrong ideas about how men and women 'should' behave sexually.

It was interesting to hear his take as I havent read/heard any of it.

The other thing that is striking to me is that Page still looks front cover photogenic. Milo doesn't. And I wonder if expectations v reality on that are also relevant. If your body's reaction to transition is negative you might stick to it longer if it's still allowing you to get attention and work from photo shoots. If that dries up and all you are left with is medical problems, then detransition ceases to look as bleak.

Page has 'sad Hollywood outcome' written all over them.

NotHavingIt · 22/06/2023 08:13

ArabeIIaScott · 21/06/2023 16:33

'I will never be a woman ... I just want to be a ten year old boy'

That is some disordered thinking, there.

Yes, that was the stand-out comment for me in what was essentially a very bland and predicatable interview - with a fawning interviewer.

When asked what did " re-defining masculinity" mean, I wondered whether it had ever occured that femininity could also be re-defined to mean something less toxic and restrictive.

Such fragility, and the fact that this obvious fragility is being nurtured by all of thses allies is very dystopian.

NotHavingIt · 22/06/2023 08:15

Lottapianos · 21/06/2023 15:44

It's a sad sad story. I read an interview with Page a couple of weeks ago and it was just a litany of abuse, sexual assault and trauma. I felt so very sorry for Page, who has clearly suffered enormously and developed gender dysphoria as a result

That all discomfort and emotional struggle is now defined as 'gender dysphoria' is a major part of the problem - because it leads down a pre-ordained and predicatble path. Naming every struggle as 'gender dysphoria' creates gender dysphoria.

NotHavingIt · 22/06/2023 08:20

Fenlandia · 21/06/2023 16:53

All the TRAs who wang on about 'trans joy' should be ashamed of themselves for cheerleading this damaged person living out their trauma in public.

Yes, the boundaries between public and private are becoming ever more eroded, and people are wallowing in the mental sufferings and distress of others performed live for the cameras.

I was reminded of this in recent days when watching the families of the two students stabbed to death in nottingham and having to perform their raw, fresh grief for a nationwide TV audience.

SockGoddess · 22/06/2023 08:42

fawning interviewer

it will have been carefully managed/interviewer carefully chosen and this wasn’t the place for Page to be challenged. I actually thought the interviewer did a good job, I got the feeling she was aware that her own bubbliness and smiliness (which seemed natural) were contrasting with the vibe EP was giving and did her best to help her subject come out of their shell and relax.

SockGoddess · 22/06/2023 08:49

Yes, the boundaries between public and private are becoming ever more eroded, and people are wallowing in the mental sufferings and distress of others performed live for the cameras.

This is so true, I am constantly gobsmacked at the things people will share on Twitter, both famous and non-famous people, under their own names. Mental breakdowns, of themselves and family members, gory wounds, photos of them having surgery, picking through the private belongings of a relative who has died, and personal letters they’ve been sent - whack it on Twitter! In some cases they are getting ambulance crew and surgeons to pose for a pic with them! Makes me feel v. old like I’ve missed the memo that there’s now no such thing as something that’s not suitable for a public airing 👵

SockGoddess · 22/06/2023 08:59

It’s also so upsetting to read Milo’s story.

Milo described the 'amazing feeling of relief that I get from thinking that never have to do anything feminine again for the rest of my life.'

This is just appalling. How are girls growing up not ever being told by anyone that it’s not essential for them to be feminine? Women have been rejecting femininity for centuries, there have always been women who refused to wear feminine clothes and act in a prescribed feminine way. They weren’t trans, they were just women who wore and did what they liked. No one needs to alter their body to reject a stereotype. Milo has been damaged for life by a complete misunderstanding that coul so easily have been avoided.

Heliotroper · 22/06/2023 09:32

When I first saw the photo, I thought 'Blimey that Elaine Paige looks really different now'

Heliotroper · 22/06/2023 09:37

BezMills · 22/06/2023 06:11

I really do hope for the best for Elliot Page. I think you're right @BadNomad and I'd also add not wanting to be a grown-up. In their own words, just wanting to be a 10yo boy.

I mean I actually was a 10yo boy and it's great, much better in many ways than being an adolescent! I believe it's not uncommon for those who experienced trauma to want to go back to the last time they felt safe and normal, which for Elliot, seems like 10. Like they associated all the assaults and abuse (+ external and internalised homophobia) with puberty and it all got rolled up into one big ball of pain.

Hey I want to be 13 and in the Scouts with computer games and warhammer, sometimes, or 21 and at University. But there's no way back, we are where we are and our health is the most precious thing. It's desperately sad that EP might have traded that for whatever she has now, which doesn't look like joy to me.

I find it disturbing when transwomen go on about 'being a girl'.

Should it be any different with transman? Even one who does look like a boy?

They should just grow up.

BezMills · 22/06/2023 09:43

Yeah sure, people should just grow up. But that is something that traumatised people can find incredibly difficult and refusing to just grow up can be how they are coping.

BreatheAndFocus · 22/06/2023 09:43

Lots of people think about the carefreeness of childhood. I remember puberty very well. I felt angry and betrayed by the obvious emergence of sexual differences. I don’t think I’m alone in that. However, wishing to go back to a pre-pubescent state is a maladjusted coping mechanism.

I feel sorry for Page in that Page didn’t get the necessary support or tools to cope with that. Add sexual abuse to that and it’s very sad. I think in some ways childhood stars can struggle with growing up because they’ve been separated from their peers and thrust into the limelight. Children and teens need a chance to deal with their emotions as they mature.

I also feel sorry for Page growing up with what appear to be such traditional ideas about sex and gender. She mentions feeling forced to wear feminine clothes, but surely half of this was/is in her head - the expectation, the self-torturing. Women have worn suits and tuxs to celeb events before. She could have stood up for herself and made her own style. I feel that the influence of messages she got growing up affected her almost as much as the abuse - the feelings of obligation, of failing (to be feminine, straight). When those are internalised, the person doesn’t stand up for themselves because they don’t think they’re worth it.

But, having said all that, I despise the message Page is sending to young girls that they can’t be tomboys, that if they suffer unwanted sexual attention from men the answer is to mutilate their bodies rather than put the onus on the men to change and society to improve. It communicates that women must give up, that the fault is inherent in them.

As said above, the fact that girls nowadays don’t know you can be female and wear and do what you want is utterly depressing and so regressive.

BezMills · 22/06/2023 09:46

@BreatheAndFocus "However, wishing to go back to a pre-pubescent state is a maladjusted coping mechanism"

Well put. A lot of our collective suffering is caused by maladjusted coping mechanisms! Personal growth towards freedom from our own past hurts is often via recognising those and finding better ways to cope.

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