Data on violence against trans people & women

[TangoTarantella]

This morning my DP (male) said that trans people were at greater risk of male violence than women. I pointed out that around 2 women a week are murdered by men in the UK (is that just by current or former partners?) and the figure for trans people was around 0. He said that if around 1% of the population are trans then at the same rate of murder of women you’d expect 0 to 1 trans murder per year so therefore in line. Kind of disproving his own point but I’d like some solid data to end this debate with him.

I haven’t been able to find any data on murder rates in trans people or the overall % of trans people in the population. Can anyone point me to any? It has really upset me that he came out with this statement so confidently and I would like to show him that he’s wrong.

Obviously there is more to violence than murder and I imagine women are at far great risk of rape/sexual assault from men than transwomen are. But are there any data on that?

Please help me to educate him otherwise he may be heading for the bin.

Hate crimes are not all crimes against a set demographic, it is only five specific types of crimes.

That's not what the ONS says, though, so can you post your source that asserts there are only five specific types of crimes?

OK, show us some evidence to back up this claim that you made:

Hate crimes exist because those demographics have been shown to have a higher rate of being victims of violent crime than the average person. A demographic is not eligible to be covered under hate crime legislation unless this is the case.

You can't because it isn't true. So all you can do is distract.

Already did. Read the report.

That’s not a definition of a hate crime. Now look who is trying to distract.

It is actually true, unlike most of what you have posted. You must be feeling pretty angry at me for disproving most if what you have claimed.

Perhaps you can’t find anything to disprove it, so are going down the pretend it’s not true path?

You can't because it isn't true. So all you can do is distract.

It's a very familiar pattern.

She is confusing the categories of hate crime victim with the categories of hate crime.

From the CPS

The law recognises five types of hate crime on the basis of:

• Race
• Religion
• Disability
• Sexual orientation
• Transgender identity

Any crime can be prosecuted as a hate crime if the offender has either:

• demonstrated hostility based on race, religion, disability, sexual orientation or transgender identity

Or

• been motivated by hostility based on race, religion, disability, sexual orientation or transgender identity

You would know, being a grandmaster at it.

Again, can you show some evidence to back up the claim you made?

Hate crimes exist because those demographics have been shown to have a higher rate of being victims of violent crime than the average person. A demographic is not eligible to be covered under hate crime legislation unless this is the case.

If you are still here , OP, (and I wouldn’t blame you if you had left some time ago,) I would show your P the footage of the Starbucks incident , the suffragette statue harassment and maybe some of the Twitter footage of the beret wearing ally of the the Brighton MP

Then I would ask him to provide one single similar instance of threats against TW or TRA. I’m sure that if they exist , they will be heavily promoted and easy to find.

misgendering or asking people to leave single sex spaces as in YMCA or Zara doesn’t count.

And, just to reiterate, we know what you are doing, @ReleasetheCrackHen but we also know that these type of thread draw many lurkers.

You are helping us to demonstrate the weakness of your arguments to them. So carry on.

just that it’s not a public order offence or a hate crime.

It's not a public order offence, but it can be a hate crime. Any crime can be a "hate crime" as per definition I and Pony posted below:

Hate crime is defined as ‘any criminal offence which is perceived, by the victim or any other person, to be motivated by hostility or prejudice towards someone based on a personal characteristic.’

You would know, being a grandmaster at it

Sigh. It is like feeding baby birds in the nest
”Hate crime laws developed in England and Wales - and in most other comparator countries- due to concern about the disproportionate criminal targeting of, and additional harm caused to certain groups in society.”
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1041169/Hate-crime-report-accessible.pdf

Sigh. It is like feeding baby birds in the nest
”Hate crime laws developed in England and Wales - and in most other comparator countries- due to concern about the disproportionate criminal targeting of, and additional harm caused to certain groups in society.”

She literally pointed exactly that out to you. It is not the same as your claim.

Yes it is exactly my claim.

Disporportionate targeting of = higher rate of victimisation than average

Which then= they are suffering additional harm.

Again, can you show some evidence to back up the claim you made?

Hate crimes exist because those demographics have been shown to have a higher rate of being victims of violent crime than the average person. A demographic is not eligible to be covered under hate crime legislation unless this is the case.

I guess they can't.

I just did!
OMG! What is up with you lot?

Either you don’t understand the difference between this guidance and your claim, or you are being wilfully disingenuous. I will let readers decide which.

Yes it is exactly my claim.

Disporportionate targeting of = higher rate of victimisation than average

No. As @MissLucyEyelesbarrow showed, the data doesn't bear that out in the case of Asian victims of crimes against the person. White people are more likely to be victims.

Either you don’t understand the difference between this guidance and your claim, or you are being wilfully disingenuous. I will let readers decide which.

Quite.

I also relish the inconsistency between @ReleasetheCrackHen’s insistence that there no accurate figures on crimes against transgender people, and her equally vehement insistence that hate crimes can only be hate crimes if the victim group is at demonstrably higher risk than the general population.

Knight’s move on the pigeon chessboard.

Doesn’t matter, as I know what you are doing, it is there in black and white that demographics are not eligible to be covered under hate crime legislation unless they suffer more severe harms due to being disproportionately targeted for criminal behaviour.

Disproportionate as in more than the average person.
And I have posted the report showing Black people are 10x and Asians 2x more likely to be victims of homicide (the worst violence there is)

We know that no one is consistently recording the gender identity of homicide victims so no idea what their rate is compared to average.

We know that roughly 20% of hate crimes against transgender people included violence in the form of assault against their person.

Meanwhile, you have posted nothing showing they are not more vulnerable than average.

They didn’t include transpeople to be covered by hate crime legislation for no reason. They had to meet the criteria as a group.

It’s in black and white, that’s why hate crime legislation was written and how groups are assessed for inclusion. You are all like 🫣 refusing to see what is in front of your noses.

There was a woman on a recent Terf Talk Tuesday from the North East of the UK.

Her friend with her two young kids, in the changing rooms.

Two men with their penises out.

She asked them to put them away and their response was to ask the kids if they wanted to suck their penises.

The council run leisure centre refused to call the police or remove the men because the crime would be logged against the woman or against the leisure centre, not against the men. The centre said it would be her word against theirs.

The reason that misogyny is not considered a hate crime, or is ever logged, is because if women reported every instance of misogynistic abuse, harassment, threats, actual violence then the police would never do anything else. They said so when the idea was first suggested.

It is because hateful conduct against females is so rampant, that it isn't recorded and thus there is no evidence it exists. Rape is virtually legalised in the UK these days, even when rapes are recorded or otherwise solidly evidenced the perpetrators get let off.

And then you get absolute plums saying 'it never happened/what was she wearing/what about the men' all the livelong day.

There aren’t accurate figures for homicides, it’s not just me saying this, it is ONS
https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/transphobichatecrimeintheuk

Release date:
22 December 2022
FOI Ref: FOI/2022/4673
You askedThe below is a freedom of information request for the following questions:

• How many transgender people were murdered in the UK in 2021?
• How many transgender people were murdered in the UK in 2021 as a direct result of a transphobia?
• How many transgender people have been murdered in the UK over the past 10 years?
• How many transgender people have been murdered in the UK over the past 10 years as a direct result of transphobia?
• As of the year ending March 2022, how many of the recorded 4,355 transgender hate crimes by police in England and Wales resulted in prosecution?

We said
Thank you for your query.

Unfortunately, we do not hold the statistics you have requested.

Our statistics on homicides in England and Wales come from the Home Office's Homicide Index, which consists of police recorded homicides and currently shows breakdowns by sex. You can see a breakdown of homicides by age and by sex in Table 4 of the Appendix Tables for our recent publication, Homicides in England and Wales, year ending March 2021.

Furthermore, we do not hold any data on homicides as a direct result of hate
crime but you can find a breakdown of homicides by apparent circumstances and relationship of the victim to the principal suspect in Table 15 of our Appendix Tables.

For more information on the Homicide Index and police recorded crime, The Home Office can be contacted at [email protected].
In regards to your question on prosecutions of hate crimes, the Home Office produce an annual publication titled 'Hate Crime, England and Wales'. Our most recent Crime Survey for England and Wales (CSEW) estimates of hate crimes within the gender identity strand can be found in Tables 7, 8 and 9 of the Hate crime, England and Wales, 2019 to 2020: appendix tables from the combined years of 2007/08 and 2008/09 to 2017/18 to 2019/20. It is worth noting this data is limited due to small numbers in the survey and figures which limit our ability to publish reliable estimates.

The 2021 to 2022 release does not include CSEW estimates due to the suspension of the face-to-face CSEW in March 2020. For more information on the suspension of the CSEW, please see our User guide to crime statistics for England and Wales: March 2020.

Within the same Hate Crime, England and Wales releases, Home Office publish the number of hate crimes recorded by the police in England and Wales, by monitored strand, 2011/12 to 2021/22 in Bulletin table 2a of the Hate crime, England and Wales, 2021 to 2022: data tables. This includes the transgender hate crime strand.

Unfortunately, we do not hold information on prosecutions. However, the Ministry of Justice (MoJ) are primarily responsible for data on offenders, prosecutions and convictions in England and Wales only. They publish statistics on a quarterly basis which may be of use to you. If you have any questions, the MoJ can be contacted at [email protected].