‘NHS trans surgery damaged my body for ever — it’s not safe’

[Igneococcus]

In the Sunday Times today about Richie Herron's and another unnamed patient's lawsuit.

"At the seven NHS adult gender clinics in England and Wales, surgery and cross-sex hormones are offered after the age of 18. Patients have at least two assessment appointments with a specialist medical practitioner before hormone treatment is recommended, and those who are considering surgical treatment have two further meetings with separate clinical professionals before they are referred."

I had more appointments (over a period of 18 months) for my pre-cancerous thyroid nodules before I was referred to surgery.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/cf857796-01ec-11ee-b730-2607a18701aa?shareToken=37ab04ab9cda65fdbba5187efb95be79

It's bad isn't it @loislovesstewie Bit of a similar situation here but my DC has gone private and not had any talk therapy at all.

Today I'm delighted that Ritchie Herron and the anon parent are taking this action. It's wonderful news whether they win or not - though they might not win for reasons Ritchie Herron talks about in the Gender a Wider Lens podcast mentioned upthread.

A lot of trusting vulnerable people - adults like Ritchie and older teens as well as children - and their families are being mightily let down by the NHS. The judicial review will at least get this out in public and hopefully lay out what's acceptable medical care and what isn't - and I can only hope it will influence the private sector and the people using it too.

I'm told by my son that he isn't gay, but he is apparently a lesbian. I really don't know what else to say. It's just madness.

@loislovesstewie, I'm so sorry to read what you're going through x

I have experience of a very young child showing signs from aged 2 gender dysmorphia and he now lives as a little girl. Prior to changing names, he (now she) was extremely obsessive over her sisters clothes and toys and showing no signs of interest in any stereotypical "boy" toys. Wanted to wear dresses and play barbie and parents took her to a therapist who said to let her live as she wished, as her behaviour was frankly horrific and then consider hormones etc when the time comes. Since this child has lived as she, not he, her life has improved massively.
But her parents fear of hormones or surgery are terrifying them. So they're basically doing everything they can to ensure their child is happy, using her chosen name and pronouns etc, but are so scared within the next 10 years their child will do irreparable damage to their body or will go through puberty and it crush her mentally. Its so sad to watch.

Now, I've a transwoman friend who has full surgery etc and if I'm honest, she seems to massively regret it and was probably just a gay man who felt ashamed. Her life is lonely, she lives as a woman but seems to have no joy from the things she presumed being a woman would bring. I think if she could go back, she would. But she can't. (I do know I sound stereotypical saying things here, but I mean she has none of the enjoyment my friends trans little girl has in living as a female)

I really do believe gender dysmorphia is a real thing. I don't for a minute think it's as widespread as people believe. I think it's honestly rare as rocking horse shit and this is almost the new vegainsm that people went hardcore for years ago or crystals etc, but just far more radical and dangerous.

I see the improvements in the child's behaviour now they live as a girl but no improvement in my friend who now lives as a woman, if anything she's more isolated than before and hates leaving the house as she feels like people are staring at her. Sometimes, they are.

I can't imagine the awful place mentally a child wanting to permanently change their body must be for a parent. Especially if it's seems to have no benefit to how they live or even give them much joy.

I just hope things work out for you and anything long term he does goes smoothly.

btw does anyone have pointers to the crowdfunder? I know we can't put a direct link here but as soon as I find it I'm donating!

I wonder whether when standard of living reaches a high enough level and you don't have to spend X hours a day or week seeking or maintaining food, water, shelter, sanitation, hygiene, problems are created. Throw in social media and people getting paid to Chris out utter nonsense and you have a catastrophe - an expensive one for the NHS.

I'm so desperately sorry Lois.

When you start looking around at the extent of the lobbying and the outcomes it's chilling.

From the article in the times posted above:

“The NHS published service specifications for adult gender dysphoria services in 2019 following a three-month public consultation. The final version of the specifications were informed by advice from various UK medical bodies including royal colleges of medicine, health regulatory bodies and NHS Trusts.”

Isn't this the service specifications for the Tavistock, which Susie Green helped to write? What else could they be talking about?

Are the NHS really defending themselves on the basis that they took advice from a lobby group that is now being called the children's sex change charity and is under investigation?

It's in the twitter link Ritchie has shared on twitter.

I think that's why my attempted posts earlier today were deleted

In this thread

twitter.com/tullipr/status/1665116767767674880?s=46&t=A2fpFNgDRyXF2d6ye97wEA

I'm quoting my own post. Because I'm wondering if the service specifications mentioned in the article are adult only, and are different to those that Susie Green helped to write.

@datun that's why the narrative around 'only trans people decide what our care looks like' is so fiercely defended.

Oh and affirming mothers of trans people.

But not the questioning mothers. Oh no. Evil bigots.

I'm quoting my own post. Because I'm wondering if the service specifications mentioned in the article are adult only, and are different to those that Susie Green helped to write.

I don't know; it's a very good question.

Clinicians are very hampered by what they're allowed to say by their governing bodies. The ones I know who don't buy into affirmation won't work with children with gender identity issues as a result. So only the ones who are totally onboard still work with children. Children are on a one way course to transition the moment they seek medical support.

@Oversharingnamechanged it's more common for children who are gender non-conforming at a young age to grow up to be same-sex attracted than it is for them to grow up wanting to change sex. Or at least it used to be less common. Now with children being "affirmed" as trans all over the place who knows.

And a lot of them (used to) grow up to be heterosexual and largely gender conforming as adults, too; also more than grew up wanting to change sex.

So it's quite a minefield for parents. Not one I've been in myself since my DC was as gender conforming as any other child.

If the child is happy wearing dresses, having long hair and playing with barbies - why can't he be a happy boy who wears dresses and plays with barbies?

Why do the words 'you're a girl' make the difference? And why does he need to alter and damage his body pursuing a facsimile of something he's not when playing with barbies and wearing dresses has resulted in a happy kid?

I know there's no answers, it just all seems so bloody sad and mislead.

Also thinking of a family member who identified as Sonic the Hedgehog for about 18 months aged 6, and lived as Sonic most of the time.

Exactly. I used to work in complaints for a big NHS trust - so many people don't understand that DNAR/DNACPR is a medical decision. Yes it should always be discussed with the patient if they are capable or their NOK if not, but even if they want full resuscitation if their doctor doesn't think it's in their best interests they don't do it.

Lots of things are refused on the NHS where there would be significant benefits for the patient - nose jobs, boob jobs, weight loss treatment if you don't meet specific guidelines, fertility treatment etc. I don't understand why gender related treatment is assumed to be some automatic right when there are so many significant risks.

Giving funding pressures to me it makes absolute sense to prioritise treatments that have the most significant benefits (i.e. people will literally die without them) and lowest risks, and then prioritise in a descending scale.

People insisting on surgery are part of the problem and some personal accountability needs to be had. If he was denied the surgery the risk is a claim he was discriminated against.. see your part in the problem.

I think it's this: www.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/NHS-England-Service-Specification-for-Specialised-Gender-Dysphoria-Services-Surgical-v4.pdf

Not sure if that's the one Green was involved in?

Discrimination law doesn't work like that though, as far as I'm aware.

The comparator would be a non-trans person as gender reassignment is the protected characteristic here. Would a non trans person be provided with the same harmful and high risk surgery on request? Because if not, it is not discrimination.

The whole 'if it goes wrong, sucks to be you' negates responsibility. This cannot be an incredibly vulnerable population when that suits and works, and just be left to suck it up because they made their choices when it doesn't.

People insisting on surgery are part of the problem

Yes they are, though Ritchie Herron wasn't one of them. He resisted surgery and when he changed his mind no-one questioned why.

and some personal accountability needs to be had.

You can't really rely on personal accountability if you've been warned a patient is mentally ill and not thinking rationally, or if you've not done a differential diagnosis, or if the patient is under pressure to accept a particular treatment. Or all three.

If he was denied the surgery the risk is a claim he was discriminated against.. see your part in the problem.

That is why standards are needed. Good standards.

This is a judicial review not a compensation claim. It's unusual because it's arguing that the whole care model is flawed.

Which it is.

I know the Child who I mentioned chose to change names etc, as I say, parents are worried sick and just taking advice, but yeah, I'd be quite happy to let my children do what they wanted to be happy such as wearing clothes that may not be usual for their sex.

I can't imagine the fear of having your child be operated on unnecessarily, (not relevant but I dislike piercings on babies or circumcision on boys etc) so the surgery aspect worries me.

I know this forum can be quite harsh at times, not just this topic but many others, but I'm glad for parents of trans kids you can find support and comfort.

Sadly I have no answers, I just find it all so bloody scary for young people nowadays.

I remember an older gentleman who lived in my grandmother's block of flats was a cross dresser, a very dated word now I'm sure, a lovely gentleman who would wear his mums clothes but he seemed to have lots going on and the thing is, people accepted it. Obviously they'd turn heads as it was unusual but once it sunk in it was just "Sue's from no.3 middle son" in a dress, they all just cracked on.
And that was about 30 years ago. He was a happy soul with his handbag and eyeshadow, but didn't want to be known as anything other than his name etc, if we could have less of this "boys wear trousers girls wear dresses" bollocks, maybe this would help more people.
But then maybe it wouldn't.

Ah. No, she was involved in the one for children.

However, if a lobby group with absolutely no medical experience whatsoever, and poor track record of safeguarding is involved in writing these specifications for children, it doesn't give you any confidence about who the bloody hell has been given input into those for adults.

It is.