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Once the medical transition is stopped I actually think the priority is the schools and culture.

I think if we root out this ideology fewer kids would need mental health services.

I'd like kids not confused rather than just expanding psychologists.

Expanding mental health services doesn't actually address why we have growing mental health issues which is where I'd put my energy once the medicalisation is stopped.

I don't have much faith in psychologists being the ones to address this phenomenon culturally.

Yep. The whole guilt by shared universally believed fact is getting an airing again I see.

I certainly can’t speak for all people that are pro trans rights but… I believe gender is a social construct.

Why do you think a made up fiction trumps biological reality?

So you think in the USA they should continue to cut the breasts off 13yr old girls until they have a mental health service in place?

I think 13 year old girls will continue to find ways to harm themselves until they have a mental health service in place, and the US right is not even ideologically in favour of accessible health services.

It doesn’t mean simply banning services as part of a culture war. @Merrymouse

Banning 'gender affirming surgery' is not simply part of a culture war. It's actually about preventing immediate life long harm to children by stopping them being mutilated.

Culture war ffs.

So...do you think the breast removal of 13yr old girls it should be stopped immediately or not?

You didn't answer the question.

If female athletes had refused to compete with bio males the same way they take stands against drug cheats, this would have been nipped in the bud pretty quick

It wasn't athletes refusing to compete that put a stop to drug cheats.

From my point of view ‘first do no harm’ means adequate funding of E.g. CAHMS. and social services so that somebody like Keira Bell has proper support in place.

Fromm my point of view, don't wait until you can solve the impossible problem. If you have to solve NHS funding before you stop physically damanging children for no good reason then you'll be damaging children forever.

It doesn’t mean simply banning services as part of a culture war.

The service is banned (or rather limited - no-one has banned children's transition in the UK, only insisted it must be part of a proper trial) because it's unsafe. The culture war is the spin you are putting on it.

the US right is not even ideologically in favour of accessible health services.

Oh, even if Matt Walsh is right on stopping child mutilation you won't say so because you probably disagree with him on how health care should be funded?

OK.

Really putting the kids before your ideology there.

If female athletes had refused to compete with bio males the same way they take stands against drug cheats, this would have been nipped in the bud pretty quick

It wasn’t female athletes taking stands against drug cheats that stopped doping in sport. What would have happened to Sharron Davies had she refused to compete against testosterone fuelled East German athletes? She would have been ignored. It took sporting bodies as a whole to crack down on drugs in sport (though many records set and medals won by drugged athletes still stand).
It’s good that many sports are now making it clear that men shouldn’t compete against women, however they identify, but it’s still taking far too long.

I am another though who disagrees that services are or would be banned due to a ‘culture war’.

They should be banned because they are unsafe, experimental when they are not life saving, and because diagnosis of the conditions they are supposed to treat has now become so clouded by support groups giving tips on influencing diagnosis that it is a minefield.

How is Kathleen Stock helping to fund child mental health services adequately?

In the U.K. by paying her taxes.

I’m just wondering when the malign influence of right wingers will start to take hold? Only I’ve been posting here about the damage gender ideology is doing to children for probably 6 years now and still nothing. As a brainwashing strategy, it’s not very effective, is it?

It’s ridiculous to ask very young women to take a stand and just not compete against males. They are young women in college in the US, being told they face disciplinary action if they don’t nod and agree. They’re women whose livelihood depends on competing. They’re high school girls FFS!

I think 13 year old girls will continue to find ways to harm themselves until they have a mental health service in place

They’re unlikely to cut their own breasts off though. It takes a deluded, greedy and inhumane medical system to facilitate this sort of mutilation dressed up as appropriate treatment for what is essentially a psychological disorder.

You think camhs in the uk is adequately resourced?

You think it's harder in the USA to get child psychology input than in the UK?

You think all UK tax payers are individually doing more to combat gender ideology than Matt Walsh?

Blimey.
We disagree on so much.

But I presume we do agree you can't change sex.

I thought this was an important documentary. I don’t care that Matt Walsh is no friend to feminists and I don’t care that he’s right-wing. He let people speak - trans and detrans people, medics, therapists… in their own words. I found that lovely, smiling therapist near the start absolutely terrifying. Educated, professional, well-meaning people believing utter nonsense is terrifying. And the Scott Newgent interview was really harrowing.

Everyone should watch this documentary - ignore the trivial rubbish about pink and blue, and struggling to open jars. When Walsh is sitting quietly and letting people speak, that’s when it’s at its most illuminating.

They should be banned because they are unsafe, experimental when they are not life saving, and because diagnosis of the conditions they are supposed to treat has now become so clouded by support groups giving tips on influencing diagnosis that it is a minefield.

The diagnosis might be wrong, but if you read Hannah Barnes’ book, there is almost always an underlying condition that needs care. Right wing politicians are grasping this issue because it is so obvious that you can’t change sex, so it’s easier to talk about that than denying terminations to miscarrying women.

Without a proper healthcare framework you just drive vulnerable people towards exploitation.

I think 13 year old girls will continue to find ways to harm themselves until they have a mental health service in place

So do you think doctors should be able to remove their breasts because they will harm themselves if they don't?

You think it's harder in the USA to get child psychology input than in the UK?

In some parts of the US, yes. CAHMS is not adequately funded, but I think it’s easier to drop out of the system completely in some US states.

Right wing politicians are grasping this issue because it is so obvious that you can’t change sex, so it’s easier to talk about that than denying terminations to miscarrying women.

Ah evil right wing people are doing this for bad reasons not because common humanity which crosses political boundaries can see that it's wrong.

(And we know they're evil because they're anti abortion so we drag that in to shore up the evil claim.)

Divisive, self aggrandising bullshit.

People who talk like this are more bothered about their own social virtue signal than just doing what is right in this situation.

Somehow I don’t think you’re debating in good faith 🙄

I am fully aware merry of the comorbidities that underlie gender dysphoria and that are being left untreated.

What I am saying is that framing banning of hormone and surgery as being a result of ‘cultural wars’ is incorrect.

And I certainly agree that mental health support needs much more investment.

It's probably easier for the majority of kids in the USA to get child psychology input because most will access it through health insurance.

But a minority will not get it at all because they don't have insurance.

In the UK the majority are unlikely to get anywhere near camhs and treatment is very perfunctory unless you are critical.

So a choice between crap for everyone vs some people get nothing isn't as easy as you claim.

All of which has nothing to do with whether cutting the breasts off a 13 yr old should be banned or not.
Which you still haven't answered.

You think all UK tax payers are individually doing more to combat gender ideology than Matt Walsh?

Obviously some people in the UK really agree with gender ideology, and we all have to pay taxes which fund health care, but then Walsh isn’t exactly against the idea of pink and blue brains, so that is a difficult question to answer.

However I very much believe that the existence of the NHS and the ability to have a judicial review and the existence of bodies like NICE is why the U.K. has had the capacity to formally examine and question what has been happening. We aren’t there yet, but I think we are better placed than either the left or the right in America. The current debate in America is regressive and unhelpful on both sides.

I don't think there's any doubt that we have quite a few children with mental health issues. And that trans ideology has been a highly promoted peg for them to hang those issues on.

Who would've thought that such a ridiculous premise would be the one to appeal to vulnerable children?

But yes, of course, removing that particular peg is not going to remove the issues.

Taking the ideology out of schools, is, in my opinion just as crucial as anything else. Because it is teaching children that their quite normal feelings are an illness. And it is removing resilience as any kind of coping mechanism.

So I do understand that stopping mutilating children is just Step One. And that it needs to be recognised as such. Not just an end in itself.

What I am saying is that framing banning of hormone and surgery as being a result of ‘cultural wars’ is incorrect.

In America, at the moment it is. On both sides the people with the loudest voices are sexist regressive men, and everyone else just gets caught in the crossfire.

There are American feminists who have been talking about this issue for years, but apparently it’s too uncomfortable for men to hear their voices.