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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What is a woman: Daily Wire documentary on for limited time for free

463 replies

AnotherDayAnotherView · 02/06/2023 10:39

https://twitter.com/stevenmarkryan/status/1664437068838363141

Available for 24 hours

https://twitter.com/stevenmarkryan/status/1664437068838363141

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15
ohdelay · 05/06/2023 11:04

nolongersurprised · 05/06/2023 09:46

Somehow I don’t think you’re debating in good faith 🙄

None of them are. Obfuscating bots. Gender critical is debate club nonsense with no end product. Matt Walsh has forced millions to actually see what is being done to children and it is unforgivable.
Go on then gender critical feminists (KJK not included), do something. Business is booming apparently
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jul/10/meet-the-gender-reassignment-surgeons-demand-is-going-through-the-roof
A mainstream media outlet in 2016 printed this outright lie

“There are a lot more male to female trans patients than there are female to male, but saying that it takes four operations to make a penis and only one to make a vagina,” said Ralph. “The main thing that trans men want is to be able to stand to void [urinate]. Secondary to that of course is being able to have sex with their new penis. This really changes their lives.”

In June 2023, urination and sex are still impossible through the flubs that result from this surgery.

Meet the gender reassignment surgeons: 'Demand is going through the roof'

Under a dozen people in the UK can carry out vaginoplasty or phalloplasty operations – and attracting new talent is tough

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jul/10/meet-the-gender-reassignment-surgeons-demand-is-going-through-the-roof

ohdelay · 05/06/2023 11:05

Another gem in plain sight
“I think most of my urology peers think I’m mad. Well actually, compared to staring down a laparoscope for four hours removing someone’s prostate this is much more fun,” said Bellringer.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 05/06/2023 11:11

“I have patients say: ‘You have saved my life.’ It is very gratifying"

Well yes, hearing someone say it must feel very gratifying. Even though you didn't.

Helleofabore · 05/06/2023 11:17

Gender critical is debate club nonsense with no end product. Matt Walsh has forced millions to actually see what is being done to children and it is unforgivable.
Go on then gender critical feminists (KJK not included), do something.

What? Here in the Uk? Blimey! Your own prejudice is showing through here.

It has been the work of feminists, parents and concerned clinicians that had forced the acknowledgement that there is no evidence to support these procedures. Walsh is a good speaker, but he is only working from the information pulled together and disseminated by women and clinicians before he came along.

He is amplifying the work of others, fine. He does is well. But no fucking way can it be said “Go on then gender critical feminists (KJK not included), do something.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 05/06/2023 11:24

“The main thing that trans men want is to be able to stand to void [urinate]. Secondary to that of course is being able to have sex with their new penis. This really changes their lives.”

And now they've got me wondering, how many men prioritise "stand up to pee" over "have sex"? A survey just waiting to be done!

ohdelay · 05/06/2023 11:24

The term "gender critical" itself implies there is a debate to be had. There isn't. The real questions are "What the fuck are you doing to that child?". "Why aren't you in prison?" Debating gender versus personality when actual crimes are being committed and begging to have your voice heard by menz is pathetic.

ohdelay · 05/06/2023 11:30

demand**

ohdelay · 05/06/2023 11:36

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 05/06/2023 11:24

“The main thing that trans men want is to be able to stand to void [urinate]. Secondary to that of course is being able to have sex with their new penis. This really changes their lives.”

And now they've got me wondering, how many men prioritise "stand up to pee" over "have sex"? A survey just waiting to be done!

If they start changing them before they're sexually active they won't know what they've lost. Possibly intentional?

MalagaNights · 05/06/2023 11:37

I think feminsts were talking about this long before anyone else and have been the ones responsible for pushing the debate into the open and I'm very grateful for them for that.

They were certainly the ones who raised my awareness years ago.

But now it is in the open they should be pleased men and people across the political divides can see how evil this is and they are taking the message even further than the feminists have been able to.

Instead of carping online that they don't like the people now agreeing with them and they said it first.

Also the message that is taking hold with the public is that this is wrong, harmful and goes against reality. It's not the GC argument that's winning people over.

Most people aren't GC. Most parents think like Matt Walsh does that there are on average differences between their sons and daughters.

So when feminsts are waiting for only complete agreement with their GC beliefs in order to challenge these damaging practices they're going to be waiting for ever whilst children are harmed.

As this is taking traction in public it's becoming clear to me that many feminists are more interested in the purity of agreement with their GC views than with preventing harm to kids.

In that form GC feminism is just another ideology prepared to allow harm to kids to protect their world view.

ScrollingLeaves · 05/06/2023 11:45

Re: the need for more mental health care for teens, unfortunately this can be part of the problem:

This is what the Royal College of Psychiatrists tweeted last February.

We're delighted to announce that we have officially been awarded a @stonewalluk Gold Award, having been ranked the 90th top

DemiColon · 05/06/2023 12:04

Merrymouse · 05/06/2023 08:00

Also I think Walsh's belief that on average boys and girls are different in their interests is more generally agreed with by the general public than the GC belief that it's just an oppressive social construct, so his approach was always going to be more appealing.

it’s the underpinning of gender ideology and the idea that you can be born in the wrong body.

I am not so sure that argument is really clear. After all, it's not the political right where you see parents and individuals falling prey to this in large numbers.

I also think that GC feminists really over-estimate the extent to which people have a hard belief in gender being something that could or should be abolished,while at the same time tending to over-state how rigid people, especially conservatives, think that gender roles should be or are.

I think the vast majority of people believe what GC feminists seem to think is a conservative position: that on average, there are some temperamental and behavioral differences between male and female humans (just like most other mammals,) which are biologically based, but also that there is quite a lot of overlap.

That differences like reproductive role and physical differences also tend to lead somewhat to different ways of behaving and thinking, because we are embodied beings.

And that taken together, these temperamental differences, and the consequences of things like pregnancy and motherhood, do lead to an overall somewhat different set of social processes that are common around the life of men and women. That doesn't mean there aren't lots of variation, or that people are compelled to do anything in particular, or that anyone should be barred from any particular career choices or whatever. It just means that there won't ever be a society that isn't in some way shaped by the differences that come out of reproductive role, and that is ok, and can even be in some ways supportive.

Matt Walsh might be somewhat on the harder end of this spectrum, though I don't think spectacularly so, and in many ways I suspect his view is closer to that of the vast majority of moderate people than the GC view is.

These people, and I would include Matt Walsh because he is really taking what is a perspective that comes out of the Catholic view of the body-soul unity, don't see that these differences mean you can "be born in the wrong body." Because that's backwards - the differences, although they become culturally reflected in various ways, are essentially the differences that tend to emerge from the kinds of bodies people actually have. It's not some kind of Platonic abstraction. A woman who likes car mechanics or Rush is not a man just because some of her interests are more typically shared by men, or even a woman who really hates being around children. It's about having a female body, which may mean she is less likely to be a big Rush fan, but would certainly mean she is necessarily subject to different material realities than a man particularly around her reproductive role and all the things that touch on that. And that's significant, and for many many women will shape their lives and decisions differently than if they were male.

This idea that conservatives and especially religious conservatives think gendered social roles are somehow separately set down from embodied causes and are really arbitrary is really mistaken. That kind of dualism is from a quite different source, I think, and not one particularly exclusive to the political right or conservative thinking - it seems to belong at least as naturally to the left, and the idea that the sexes can completely transcend embodies differences is a significant example of it. It's part of why people like Walsh tend to see feminism as having led people down a garden path.

ScrollingLeaves · 05/06/2023 12:11

Merrymouse · Today 09:50
You think all UK tax payers are individually doing more to combat gender ideology than Matt Walsh?

Obviously some people in the UK really agree with gender ideology, and we all have to pay taxes which fund health care, but then Walsh isn’t exactly against the idea of pink and blue brains, so that is a difficult question to answer.

Re: but then Walsh isn’t exactly against the idea of pink and blue brains, so that is a difficult question to answer.

He did let Jordan Peterson say vehemently, passionately - almost shouting - (me trying to remember so may not be word perfect):

“You get feminine boys and masculine girls. What are you going to do? Cut them up?”

So I do not think MW believes a feminine boy is not a boy, or that he is trans; or that a masculine girl is not a girl, has a blue brain, and should be transed.

He could so easily have cut that scene with JP saying what he did in the ‘What is a Woman?’ film, but he chose to let it stand in a prominent way. As I remember it closed the shot.

Also in this clip at 13:59 of Matt Walsh talking about pronouns on the Phil show he explains that if your 4 year old boy says he is a girl, what he really means is that he wants to play with a doll’s house. M W clearly and emphatically, says,

“That’s fine. Let him play with the doll’s house. But he’s still a boy.”

GailBlancheViola · 05/06/2023 12:14

And now they've got me wondering, how many men prioritise "stand up to pee" over "have sex"? A survey just waiting to be done!

Vague recollections of some medical research being sone that said it was better for men to sit down and pee, something to do with emptying the bladder better?

I reckon your survey would be 100% for one option....

Clymene · 05/06/2023 12:15

Serena Partrick on Twitter reposted this great piece from Victoria Smith from when the film was first released last year. It's bang on the money

thecritic.co.uk/mansplaining-womanhood/

Merrymouse · 05/06/2023 12:26

Demicolon thank you for taking the time to write a long and thoughtful reply.

I don’t think the American right wing can be easily mapped on to any part of U.K. politics, because we don’t have the same starting points on attitudes to religion, healthcare or individual vs state.

Having said that the American left also seem to start from a standpoint that is alien to me.

We are very much two countries separated by a common language, and I wish their politics would stay more separate.

ScrollingLeaves · 05/06/2023 12:31

DemiColon, many thanks from me too.

OMG12 · 05/06/2023 12:40

MalagaNights · 05/06/2023 11:37

I think feminsts were talking about this long before anyone else and have been the ones responsible for pushing the debate into the open and I'm very grateful for them for that.

They were certainly the ones who raised my awareness years ago.

But now it is in the open they should be pleased men and people across the political divides can see how evil this is and they are taking the message even further than the feminists have been able to.

Instead of carping online that they don't like the people now agreeing with them and they said it first.

Also the message that is taking hold with the public is that this is wrong, harmful and goes against reality. It's not the GC argument that's winning people over.

Most people aren't GC. Most parents think like Matt Walsh does that there are on average differences between their sons and daughters.

So when feminsts are waiting for only complete agreement with their GC beliefs in order to challenge these damaging practices they're going to be waiting for ever whilst children are harmed.

As this is taking traction in public it's becoming clear to me that many feminists are more interested in the purity of agreement with their GC views than with preventing harm to kids.

In that form GC feminism is just another ideology prepared to allow harm to kids to protect their world view.

I think this is an important point. The TRAs have been successful in part with their campaigns with easy soundbites thst sound so plausible.

Most parents do see a difference between the natures of boys and girls. But it just needs reiterating that just because a boy plays with his sisters toys and likes stereotypical girls stuff he is still a boy.

The general public aren’t interested in ideologies surrounding nature v nurture. They just want easy to understand common sense sounding points.

Arguing over ideological points will turn most people off.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 05/06/2023 12:41

ScrollingLeaves · 05/06/2023 12:31

DemiColon, many thanks from me too.

Me 3, useful and thought provoking

ScrollingLeaves · 05/06/2023 12:45

Clymene thanks for The Critic review of the film. It cleverly puts the questionable aspects very clearly and well.

But as it happens, her own implication at the end of her article, that her own three sons having played with a doll’s house would be a problem for Matt Ealsh, seems not to be true.

As I wrote above, on a Phil show about pronouns, MW said about a four year old boy saying he was a girl, that on further questioning you’d find he just wanted to play with the doll’s house. He added, “Fine. Let him play, but he’s still a boy.”

(Unless the Phil Show came after this Serena Partrick Critic piece last year, MW read it and saw the error of his ways just in time to quickly adapt for the show!😀)

Clymene · 05/06/2023 13:05

@ScrollingLeaves - ha, we cross posted. I checked - the dr Phil thing was filmed before she wrote the review (the article is by Victoria Smith incidentally, I just wanted to credit Serena for posting it). So I guess her assumption is wrong although I think it's a pretty fair one considering how the film ended.

maltravers · 05/06/2023 13:07

We don’t want purity spirals, we want to win the argument. If TRAs are saying “GC feminists shouldn’t be on the same side as Matt Walsh” it’s because it suits them to divide and rule. TRAs are not trying to safeguard the purity of our reputations, are they? So if in your view MW is mansplaining (rather than covering and amplifying a story we want covered and amplified) - i don’t care if he reaches men’s ears more easily than GC women.

Theladyinluna · 05/06/2023 13:35

TraumatisedGooner · 05/06/2023 07:05

I certainly can’t speak for all people that are pro trans rights but… I believe gender is a social construct. I don’t think that’s an unusual point of view either.

You certainly can't as I suspect most on this thread are pro-trans rights. We just don't think women's rights were privileges to be removed when they inconvenience another group. Men who identify as women have rights as trans people. They don't have rights as women.

Theladyinluna · 05/06/2023 13:39

NotTerfNorCis · 05/06/2023 08:04

The fundamental problem here is that:

The right-wing have found genderism a useful tool to attack the left, because it's so obviously ridiculous.

Left-wing 'woke-bros' have found right-wing criticism of genderism a useful tool to attack feminism, because they can accuse feminists of allying with the right.

It's a tricky situation for feminists.

Well summarised.