Frustrating conversation with NB sister

[pastatriangles]

'I don't want to be called a cis woman.' (Me)
'I will call you cis because that's what you are.'
'What would you say if a transwoman wanted to be called a woman?'
'I would call her a woman.'
'You wouldn't insist on calling them a trans woman because that's what they are?'
...

It's so frustrating how many women and girls don't realise this movement is actually the pinnacle of male entitlement, to the point of them taking over womanhood for themselves. And the refusal to see it when confronted with it.

end rant.

I'm happy to recognise that there are women in your movement that think of themselves as "cis". It's your identity label, it's up to you what you call yourself. It's not mine, and I find it offensive to be co-opted into your faith belief.

What's the problem with "women and trans women"? If you think of them as women, I'm sure that many other people agree with you. I don't, and I don't use your terms. To me a trans woman is someone of the sex that typically produces ova, with a gender identity.

Of course cisgender means not transgender.

Cisgender means someone who does not have a gender identity at odds with sex assigned at birth.

OP does not have a gender identity at odds with sex assigned at birth (she may well believe she has no gender identity at all but that amounts to the same thing for these purposes).

Many self-identified trans people admit they don’t have gender dysphoria. Where do they fit in, I wonder?

I mean yes, that is an example of a hypothetical sentence where you might need to use the adjectives gay and straight.

Thanks for demonstrating the need for adjectives in language.

I've never seen that particular twisted wording before. Perfectly designed so you can keep on calling people 'cis' after they've told you they have no gender.

Not very kind to agender people, is it? Denying their existence like that. Very phobic of you.

And as we all know, sex is determined at conception and observed at birth (or before). No assigning necessary.

When you were born, TeaKlaxon, did someone genuinely need to come and assign your sex?

Try using that with any other adjective.

If someone objected to being called a 'straight woman' and said 'why can't you just refer to women and gay women', the answer is that doing so implies that gay women are not included within the category of women.

Obviously on this board, most people think trans women aren't included within the category of women, but it is unreasonable to demand that I frame the language I use around conceding a view that I do not have.

Can you imagine if The Life Of Brian had a sequel?

Loretta in the first film convinced the Roman authorities he was really a woman, and a whole beauracracy sprung up from that moment.

And the fun and games that ensued.

No need to imagine it, Reality.

So your sister is Non Binary and she thinks that she is above you in the hierarchy of oppression.
She thinks that she has more status than you because you are merely a 'cis' woman.

If someone objected to being called a 'straight woman' and said 'why can't you just refer to women and gay women', the answer is that doing so implies that gay women are not included within the category of women.

That isn't the same, because it's not including the opposite of the category in the category itself, thereby making the category meaningless.

What is a woman, @TeaKlaxon? How do we know who is one?

What I wonder is, if trans women were calling themselves women and the rest all calling themselves cis women, how long before trans women started insisting on also being called cis women?

That's a radical interpretation of the text.

This.

Then have the 'then knock the fuck off with the cis crap then' argument.

Be good to hear this.

My point is serious inasmuch as I think the oppression of women over the centuries would have been even worse, women would have been even more marginalised.

The genius of the film is that it captured the early impulse of political correctness that was developing in the late 70s, crystallised the inanity of the bureaucratic state perfectly, and between these two vice-like pressures, showed that a concept like a man IDing as Loretta, was not only perfectly possible, but almost pre-destined by the system.

Political correctness aka no language to marginalise minorities.

The bureaucratic state aka an increasing series of legal traps to enshrine change and progress.

Mesh the two together, as social media inflames social justice issues, and the legal state is now supra national and international.

The perfect melting pot for trans to step out into the light and be enshrined.

Except that isn't quite true.
A cis gender woman/man is one that identifies as the gender that matches their sex identified (assigned if you go by the trans lobby) at birth.

Nobody has to identify as a gender they can just be the sex that they are.
So Cis doesn't work for everybody.

Is an 'agender' person cis, then?

Teaklaxon, are trans men actual men? If you had a long-term girlfriend Martina who later transitioned to become Martin… no deadnaming allowed, how does that affect the time you spent with them when they were Martina? Were you unwittingly dating a man all along, if TMAM? Does that mean you were inadvertently in a heterosexual relationship? This is another reason why I can’t accept TWAW and TMAM, it’s not grounded in reality but in intangible feelings.

Be good to hear this.

It would. It would be the first time I've ever heard who is a woman from any genderist which wasn't predicated simply on deciding you are one.

Yes. It's more like if a group of women who were attracted to men wanted to call themselves lesbians. Heterosexual lesbians. And insisted that actual lesbians always referred to themselves as homosexual lesbians, and never spoke about lesbian issues without being sure to include the lesbians who have male partners.

Twisting a word to make it include its opposite.

If you're attracted to men, you aren't a lesbian. If you were born a man, you aren't a woman.

We had a bloody glossary of terms sent round to us yesterday by our HR department. One of the terms was Cis and I'm so pissed off about it I want to complain but don't even know how to frame my argument about it.

Well, did HR include a warning that many people find it offensive so you should all avoid using it in the workplace? If they forgot then you could politely remind them.

Yes. It's more like if a group of women who were attracted to men wanted to call themselves lesbians. Heterosexual lesbians. And insisted that actual lesbians always referred to themselves as homosexual lesbians, and never spoke about lesbian issues without being sure to include the lesbians who have male partners.

Twisting a word to make it include its opposite.

If you're attracted to men, you aren't a lesbian. If you were born a man, you aren't a woman.

This. It's exactly like that.