Frustrating conversation with NB sister

[pastatriangles]

'I don't want to be called a cis woman.' (Me)
'I will call you cis because that's what you are.'
'What would you say if a transwoman wanted to be called a woman?'
'I would call her a woman.'
'You wouldn't insist on calling them a trans woman because that's what they are?'
...

It's so frustrating how many women and girls don't realise this movement is actually the pinnacle of male entitlement, to the point of them taking over womanhood for themselves. And the refusal to see it when confronted with it.

end rant.

It's all very Animal Farm.

I've pointed this out only to be met with emotional arguments about fragility and suicide - that can only be assuaged by taking over women's identity and spaces (a bit like staying with a partner who threatens to kill themselves if you leave).

Our mum is just called a Karen.

My sister is extremely kind and empathetic, and highly educated - I don't know how she hasn't had an 'are we the baddies?' moment.

To step back and realise that what she's supporting is a thinly veiled Men's Rights movement. It's not progressive, and it's not kind.

I'm reminded of the quote 'Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.'

There's no need to use the term cisgender/cis in most contexts. Just like there is no need to use the term trans/transgender in most contexts. We can just call people men or women, or non-binary, as appropriate.

Like all adjectives.

But sometimes in a discussion, it is relevant whether someone is transgender or not. I'm assuming the OP is not transgender.

I've no idea why anyone would think it is offensive to have a word to describe a relevant adjective in a discussion.

There's no need to use it at all, and it's presumptuous and rude.

Doesn't matter if you don't understand or not, TeaKlaxon. Either everyone respects what other people ask to be called, or we all make up our own minds.

But sometimes in a discussion, it is relevant whether someone is transgender or not. I'm assuming the OP is not transgender.

To my mind, assuming that you consider trans women to be women, surely it would be women and trans women, since trans women are vastly outnumbered by women in the group, rather than women and cis women?

I don't ever consider males as a type of women, so I reject the ideological language of the faith-based movement that says they can.

My sister is extremely kind and empathetic

Her behaviour suggest she uses a performance of kindness to get her own way and go under the radar.

Of course it matters. Some people are transgender and some are not. Having a word to describe the second cohort is just basic linguistics.

Sometimes we need adjectives to use when its relevant to the conversation.

Sometimes it will be relevant to describe me as a gay woman. Most times it won't, but if someone is describing my experience compared to a straight woman, then the adjectives gay and straight are both necessary parts of language.

They're not adult human females, so outside your ideological belief framework they aren't actually women. If you must, "women and trans women".

In a context where I'm referring to cis women, I would also be referring to trans women. I consider both to be adjectives for different cohorts of women.

So mostly, I would just refer to 'women' (to include trans women and cis women).

But when it's relevant to distinguish between women who are trans, and women who are not, then I would refer to trans women and cis women.

But I don't use "trans women" as it is a category error. If I did I would be referring to a biological female person with a "male" gender identity. But I'm doing my bit to avoid confusion, so I just find other terms to use.

If said quickly this could be mis-heard as "nonsense man."

If OP doesn't wish to be given an ideological label she disagrees with, it's polite to respect that, and not polite to impose your own beliefs on her.

We had a bloody glossary of terms sent round to us yesterday by our HR department. One of the terms was Cis and I'm so pissed off about it I want to complain but don't even know how to frame my argument about it. I thought maybe it was me being sensitive so in a way I'm pleased to read re your talk with your sister.

It's so frustrating how many women and girls don't realise this movement is actually the pinnacle of male entitlement, to the point of them taking over womanhood for themselves. And the refusal to see it when confronted with it.

It really is crystal clear when you see it once, you can't unsee it.

But when it's relevant to distinguish between women who are trans, and women who are not, then I would refer to trans women and cis women.

How about 'actual women' - as you are hearing that many women do not identify themselves as cis, and find the adjective 'cis' both inaccurate and insulting.

Cis does not mean 'not trans'. It assumes a gender identity. It's misgendering.

"My sister is extremely kind and empathetic, and highly educated - I don't know how she hasn't had an 'are we the baddies?' moment". Thing is, OP, in this instance she is neither empathic nor kind. I accept she may be in other situations, but she appears to not be able to cope with the complexity of this situation as she sees it and has therefore thrown some women, including you and her mum, under the bus. Don't enable her by pretending that she is always kind.

Cis means your gender identity matches your biological reality. Many of us here don’t have a gender identity, so we’re neither cis nor trans. We’re just women (and also some men, eg RealityFan). Trans activists and allies try to frame “cis” as the equivalent to “straight” for people who aren’t gay or bisexual. But “straight” is a sexual orientation grounded in fact. If I’m cis, that means I have floaty gender-feels that I am a woman. No. My womanhood is rooted in my sex-based biology, and although it shapes my life, health and how others treat me, it does not have an influence on my personality. I am gender non-conforming, I didn’t feel all floatily aligned with my female body as I went through puberty and I’d have probably preferred to be a boy as it was blindingly obvious to me throughout my childhood that boys had more opportunities and more fun. So no, I’m not cis. I’m a woman, no prefix needed.

Such fuzzy logic isn't it? I was told yesterday that "There are laws saying you have to be nice to trans people." I don't think so.

I've never been nice to Arsenal and Chelsea supporters. Should there be a law telling me I should?

Bollocks! (male, not cis male, exclaiming).

Sometimes it will be relevant to describe me as a gay woman. Most times it won't, but if someone is describing my experience compared to a straight woman, then the adjectives gay and straight are both necessary parts of language.

You mean like in the following sentences:

As a gay woman you would not be sexually interested in a man who identifies as a trans woman, but as a straight woman I could be sexually interested in a man who identifies as a trans woman.

(Note, I can't imagine the second ever happening but theoretically they are the sex I am attracted to)

But I think trans women are 'actual women' too. So referring to women who are not trans as 'actual women' doesn't work to distinguish between cisgender women and transgender women.

Which is essentially what this boils down to: you want to prevent the use of cisgender precisely so you can force people like me to express views that I don't believe (i.e. that trans women aren't 'actual women').

I respect your right to believe whatever you wish; so long as you respect my right not to believe.

Freedom of belief is of course a protected characteristic in the EA -

'Religion refers to any religion, including a lack of religion. Belief refers to any religious or philosophical belief and includes a lack of belief. Generally, a belief should affect your life choices or the way you live for it to be included in the definition.'

My bold.

Tea, no, you've misunderstood. You are free to refer to yourself however you wish. You just can't apply that label to those of us who are politely saying 'no, thank you'.

Well, you can, but it destroys your argument. Pretty much it's calling me a 'heathen' and insisting that I adopt and accept that term for myself. Which I don't, because I'm not a Christian.

I don't care what you call yourself - I do care what you call me.