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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Gender Wars - Channel 4 - 10pm tonight

443 replies

chouxchoux · 30/05/2023 20:43

With the brilliant Kathleen Stock.

Anyone planning to watch?

(Apologies if there’s an existing thread I’ve missed).

OP posts:
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TinselAngel · 31/05/2023 11:52

Went advises organisations on their EDI requirements.

The extent to which these reasonable transexuals have all created their own lucrative grift is flabbergasting.

Mind you, he clearly doesn't make enough to hire a cleaner.

Helleofabore · 31/05/2023 11:52

ArabeIIaScott · 31/05/2023 11:48

So Went will still trample on women's rights, but will smile whilst doing so. I see.

Yes.

They have past form for it.

TinselAngel · 31/05/2023 11:53

And yes, why were they so concerned about the women’s toilets.
I thought they were supposed to feel safer in the Ladies? It's very confusing.

TinselAngel · 31/05/2023 11:56

The more I think about it, the "reasonable transexual" pose is just marketing for the grift isn't it? Particularly now the tide is turning.

Helleofabore · 31/05/2023 12:01

ArabeIIaScott · 31/05/2023 11:48

So Went will still trample on women's rights, but will smile whilst doing so. I see.

I suspect you have nailed the purpose without saying it explicitly.

WarningToTheCurious · 31/05/2023 12:01

TinselAngel · 31/05/2023 11:56

The more I think about it, the "reasonable transexual" pose is just marketing for the grift isn't it? Particularly now the tide is turning.

When your business model becomes untenable (the era of #nodebate is over) … change your business model.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 31/05/2023 12:02

Went advises organisations on their EDI requirements.

Of course.

TinyTopknot · 31/05/2023 12:03

Helleofabore · 31/05/2023 11:32

It was interesting that Gina Gwenffrewi said they looked for a gender neutral option for toilets at a pub. It was good to hear that on the doco, that confirms that some males do that.

He really concerned me. Bad vibes even through the tv.

AgathaAllAlong · 31/05/2023 12:09

JanesLittleGirl · 31/05/2023 11:06

From Dictionary.com:

A girl crush is a non-sexual, non-romantic admiration that one woman has for another.

Show quote history

I don't even know where to start with that. What is wrong with the word "admiration" - perhaps it's not cutesy and girly enough? Why are we calling adult women "girls"? Where does that leave same sex attraction? Why do we feel the need to frame looking up to another woman in terms of romantic and sexual language?

Also a lot of the replies are saying things like "I'm straight but..." And "If I were a lesbian..." which does rather suggest that the framing in terms of romantic / sexual crush language is intentional.

To be clear I'm not really picking fights with individual posters. I think it shows something deeper about how society views women: as objects of attraction before anything else.

TinyTopknot · 31/05/2023 12:11

AgathaAllAlong · 31/05/2023 12:09

I don't even know where to start with that. What is wrong with the word "admiration" - perhaps it's not cutesy and girly enough? Why are we calling adult women "girls"? Where does that leave same sex attraction? Why do we feel the need to frame looking up to another woman in terms of romantic and sexual language?

Also a lot of the replies are saying things like "I'm straight but..." And "If I were a lesbian..." which does rather suggest that the framing in terms of romantic / sexual crush language is intentional.

To be clear I'm not really picking fights with individual posters. I think it shows something deeper about how society views women: as objects of attraction before anything else.

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I have found this deeply weird too.

Emotionalsupportviper · 31/05/2023 12:25

ArabeIIaScott · 31/05/2023 11:13

If KJ is still using women's spaces, even after realisation that KJ's presence may cause actual terror to women, then KJ doesn't strike me as in any way harmless or moderate.

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I thought that.

Knowingly and deliberately frightening people much weaker and more vulnerable than yourself is bullying. The Ego Has Landed.

Mmmnotsure · 31/05/2023 12:38

The Hamlet-Went gambit
That one may smile, and smile, and be a villain.

Perhaps Went enjoys the effect of using women's spaces.

Jux · 31/05/2023 12:56

AgathaAllAlong I'm copying your post here, so I can have a decent think about it, simply because the way MN works now makes it really really hard to find any posts other than one's own, unless you're a Premium user which I can't actually afford atm.

To be clear, I think I'm in agreement with you now you've pointed it out (I said "If I were a lesbian.....") so I'd like to have an answer to you which will clear my head of it. I won't derail the thread any further than this though: I am 65 and I suppose this is just something one had to say in many circles, not I really admire her - often met with piss taking for being a closet lesbian; I would love to know her/be her friend - often met with piss taking for being a closet lesbian - you see where this is going obviously. Far better to take the bull by the horns. Habit made me phrase it as I did, perhaps. I don't often admire people, and I do feel somethng more than admiration for KS but no idea what it is yet. Nothing remotely sexual anyway.

"I don't even know where to start with that. What is wrong with the word "admiration" - perhaps it's not cutesy and girly enough? Why are we calling adult women "girls"? Where does that leave same sex attraction? Why do we feel the need to frame looking up to another woman in terms of romantic and sexual language?

Also a lot of the replies are saying things like "I'm straight but..." And "If I were a lesbian..." which does rather suggest that the framing in terms of romantic / sexual crush language is intentional.

To be clear I'm not really picking fights with individual posters. I think it shows something deeper about how society views women: as objects of attraction before anything else."

Thanks for your post, I do learn so much from MN.

SelfPortraitWithHagstone · 31/05/2023 13:01

Also a lot of the replies are saying things like "I'm straight but..." And "If I were a lesbian..." which does rather suggest that the framing in terms of romantic / sexual crush language is intentional.

To be clear I'm not really picking fights with individual posters. I think it shows something deeper about how society views women: as objects of attraction before anything else.

I think this is a really thought-provoking point, but I'm not sure it speaks to internalised misogyny as much as you imply. There was an equally gushing (and arch) outpouring of appreciation for Ben Cooper during his various appearances at tribunals... Nor is it (I suspect) only women who express romantic/sexual feelings for random people, especially ones who happen to epitomise qualities they admire.

I wonder whether it's more that we have a tendency to express lust as a playful way both to underline the sheer intensity of our feelings and ironise it (hence the "girl crush" language). It acknowledges genuine, passionate admiration but also the fact that we don't have any meaningful personal relationship with her, and there is something a bit childish and embarrassing to feel so strongly about a stranger.

LoobiJee · 31/05/2023 13:02

TinselAngel, when we were discussing the programme afterwards, I said to DP that the group completely ignored by the programme were the trans widows. Interestingly it hadn’t even crossed his mind that there are wives and children affected by the decisions made.

BonfireLady · 31/05/2023 13:03

WarningToTheCurious · 31/05/2023 12:01

When your business model becomes untenable (the era of #nodebate is over) … change your business model.

Show quote history

Perhaps Went will realise that the only approach that will work is third spaces. Anyone can self-ID in to those, as long as there are enough of them, for whatever reason they like (without having to give a reason) as an alternative to accessing toilets/changing rooms for their own (biological) sex, if using the communal rooms for their own sex is uncomfortable for them in any way.

If Went's preference is to access women's spaces because that provides validation, Went will learn (through participating in reasonable debate) that this preference won't be accommodated. The era of EDI dominance is (hopefully... June 12th 🤞) over. It's time for the grown ups to agree how TW and TM can access spaces and services that give them dignity without impacting on others' rights or safeguarding. If we can't have reasonable debate with people like Went, I don't see how we will achieve this.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 31/05/2023 13:04

Yes, I really think that all that’s been discovered here is that humans like to have sex with other humans

hardly ground breaking stuff

RealityFan · 31/05/2023 13:05

BonfireLady · 31/05/2023 13:03

Perhaps Went will realise that the only approach that will work is third spaces. Anyone can self-ID in to those, as long as there are enough of them, for whatever reason they like (without having to give a reason) as an alternative to accessing toilets/changing rooms for their own (biological) sex, if using the communal rooms for their own sex is uncomfortable for them in any way.

If Went's preference is to access women's spaces because that provides validation, Went will learn (through participating in reasonable debate) that this preference won't be accommodated. The era of EDI dominance is (hopefully... June 12th 🤞) over. It's time for the grown ups to agree how TW and TM can access spaces and services that give them dignity without impacting on others' rights or safeguarding. If we can't have reasonable debate with people like Went, I don't see how we will achieve this.

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What's happening on June 12th?
Will it be worth celebrating down the pub?

MavisMcMinty · 31/05/2023 13:06

Just watched it, after reading this whole thread. I thought Doc Stock sounded very upset during the tiny clip of her Cambridge debate that they showed. Kass was a [expletive deleted] to her and did Kass’s cause no good imo, maybe trans people and activists across the land were roaring their approval at Kass’s rudeness.

So much scope for a whole docu-series on the subject, but on the whole this was a fair attempt by C4 in the 48 minutes it was given.

SelfPortraitWithHagstone · 31/05/2023 13:07

Yes, I really think that all that’s been discovered here is that humans like to have sex with other humans

hardly ground breaking stuff

😂

Ereshkigalangcleg · 31/05/2023 13:07

The era of EDI dominance is (hopefully... June 12th)

You're way more optimistic than me about this debate.

EmmaGrundyForPM · 31/05/2023 13:18

I thought Went came across as a decent person who was trying to find common ground. The documentary obviously only showed edited clips. If Linda Bellos thinks he's worth engaging with, that's good enough for me

BonfireLady · 31/05/2023 13:23

Ereshkigalangcleg · 31/05/2023 13:07

The era of EDI dominance is (hopefully... June 12th)

You're way more optimistic than me about this debate.

I'm finding it hard to stay optimistic. The BBC, amongst others, are currently doing a hideously one-sided onslaught of articles with half-stories being told that paint a picture in support of keeping the Equality Act exactly how it is, with all of its ambiguitity. However, there seem to be quite a few people standing firm. The pushback from the Lords (I think it was the Lords?) in support of Baroness Falkner, for example, gives me hope.

@RealityFan it's the debate in parliament about whether the Equality Act needs firming up to make it clear that sex means biological sex, not gender identity or legal gender. Pretty much everything that needs straightening out (except sport, as that's already covered under clear guidance and law... it was just mostly ignored until recently) is underpinned by this. There was a big petition (>100,000 signatories) to say clarification was needed and an even bigger one (from a "trans rights" perspective) to say that it wasn't. In fact, they said that it was a "change" being proposed, not clarity.... which in itself highlights just how important the clarity is, when there are many people and organisations who think that the current wording allows transwomen to self-ID in to women's spaces and services. I suspect a post-debate debrief in pub with some celebratory/commiseratory beers would be a good idea whichever way the answer goes 🍺

Helleofabore · 31/05/2023 13:26

Ereshkigalangcleg · 31/05/2023 13:07

The era of EDI dominance is (hopefully... June 12th)

You're way more optimistic than me about this debate.

I remember probably saying the exact same words in 2019. We do live in hope that ‘reasonable’ discussion will change minds. However, I have learned it won’t change the mind of the likes of Went , it changes other minds who then enact the changes we need.

Went has had the discussions time and again. I have seen Went have the discussions. I don’t believe that Went has changed positions. Went has a friendship with Linda Bellos. It believe this has been a long friendship that I learned about from this board. So Went has no doubt heard every single argument and not changed Went’s mind or actions.

At this time, it is the people who will make those changes that will force Went to have to change position rather than discussions with Went that will make a difference. Those are discussions that have been prioritised and are happening. Went is Went and will continue to be all for Went and while Went is fine but to roll out as a ‘reasonable’ speaker, as is Hayton, they need to be acknowledged as who they are and who they are not.

As long as we are honest about them, we can always acknowledge they appeared reasonable in this program. But know that is about all we can acknowledge.

RealityFan · 31/05/2023 13:31

BonfireLady · 31/05/2023 13:23

I'm finding it hard to stay optimistic. The BBC, amongst others, are currently doing a hideously one-sided onslaught of articles with half-stories being told that paint a picture in support of keeping the Equality Act exactly how it is, with all of its ambiguitity. However, there seem to be quite a few people standing firm. The pushback from the Lords (I think it was the Lords?) in support of Baroness Falkner, for example, gives me hope.

@RealityFan it's the debate in parliament about whether the Equality Act needs firming up to make it clear that sex means biological sex, not gender identity or legal gender. Pretty much everything that needs straightening out (except sport, as that's already covered under clear guidance and law... it was just mostly ignored until recently) is underpinned by this. There was a big petition (>100,000 signatories) to say clarification was needed and an even bigger one (from a "trans rights" perspective) to say that it wasn't. In fact, they said that it was a "change" being proposed, not clarity.... which in itself highlights just how important the clarity is, when there are many people and organisations who think that the current wording allows transwomen to self-ID in to women's spaces and services. I suspect a post-debate debrief in pub with some celebratory/commiseratory beers would be a good idea whichever way the answer goes 🍺

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Thanks. I was unaware a date had been set. I thought Rishi was still playing silly buggers and using the threat of a parliamentary debate as a GE wedge issue.

We will finally see MPs and parties true colours on this matter. Politicians won't be able to hide behind pointless platitudes anymore.

The BBC as unbiased here?
Maybe BBC Verify should be renamed BBC Obfuscate.