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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"I don't give a shit about the scientific explanations. If they identify as a women, they get to compete in sports"

306 replies

EdgeOfACoin · 29/05/2023 07:17

Emma Vigeland, presenter on The Majority Report, a "progressive" internet talk radio programme and podcast, has made it crystal clear that gender identity trumps fairness when it comes to sport.

Unfortunately I'm not tech savvy enough to clip the relevant section from the show directly, but plenty of other have, including Triggernometry presenter Konstantin Kisin, who Tweeted about it. You can see the video on his Twitter page:

https://twitter.com/KonstantinKisin/status/1662390264005120001?t=3-gYh1LvSAt93Fh1N68boA&s=19

Emma has not backed down from her comments and has since mocked "terfs" for being "triggered" by her, declaring that "gender affirming care" for minors would solve all of the problems anyway:

https://twitter.com/EmmaVigeland/status/1662491715352010752

Emma has unequivocally declared that she is right on this issue.

Fascinating to see any pretence that the subject is "complicated" has gone - no, if a person with a penis wants to compete in women's sports, then that takes priority over everything else, including fairness.

As a side note, she used to be a presenter on The Young Turks and made a (very) half-hearted attempt to defend her former colleague Ana Kasparian last month after Ana lost patience with being referred to as a "birthing person". (Interestingly, Ana hasn't retreated from her own comments either.)

https://twitter.com/KonstantinKisin/status/1662390264005120001?s=19&t=3-gYh1LvSAt93Fh1N68boA

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MargotBamborough · 20/09/2023 06:15

EmiliaB71 · 19/09/2023 23:47

Have you also considered that getting SRS isn't easy? 4 years waiting for an initial consult. You need to live full-time for a minimum of 1 year before you're allowed to have a conversation. SRS requires permission from 2 surgeons who independently confirm that you are informed and know what to expect. It took me until end of June this year to get the endorsement letter for surgery. And now it's again a waiting game (18months is the current waiting time between endorsement and surgery). In some ways it is humiliating that at 52 I am not in charge of my own body.
As for sports: at elite-level, if I specifically look at e.g, Lia Thomas, the reduction from 2 to 1 year hormone therapy was a bad decision. 1 year is too short. Anyone who has gone through transition from male to female will confirm that a lot of changes to the body are very much in full swing during that second year. That is also a big part of the turmoil now: It's like every federation threw a dart at a dartboard to decide what their policy would be. And now It's really how it is being handled now which is just not helpful for anyone. If they don't do proper longitudinal studies, it will remain guesswork. And meanwhile organisations with ulterior motives will use the situation to drive their agendas, which ultimately helps nobody but a few extremists. And the new open categories don't fix anything...because as I hinted previously: where do you think they will get the prize money from? the men's? Hmm when was the last time you saw men give something up for a fairer world...

Hi Emilia. Welcome to Mumsnet.

I'm sorry you have spent so much time on waiting lists, but on the plus side, it sounds like getting SRS is still quicker than getting diagnosed with endometriosis, which can take a decade if you are unlucky.

The studies you are referring to have been done. They all show that no amount of testosterone suppression is enough to completely remove male physical advantage, which is why there is no scientific justification for trans women competing in women's sports, regardless of what stage they are at in their transition.

I do have a question for you though. Lia Thomas wanted to (and was allowed to) compete in the women's swimming events on the basis that Lia identifies as a woman. Lia is therefore a biologically male person with a gender identity that they believe is female. What does Lia have in common with biologically female athletes who have no gender identity, or indeed the biologically female athlete who competed in the same category whose gender identity is male? In short, if the category is no longer for biologically female athletes regardless of any identity they may or may not have, what is this category now and what is the point of it?

Helleofabore · 20/09/2023 06:31

EmiliaB71 · 20/09/2023 00:04

I'm new, I was merely reading and honestly hadn't noticed it's an archived thread. But the thread shows something I see happening everywhere these days.: Nobody really talks anymore. All that tends to happen is as soon as 2 sentences are said, people dig in their heels and stop listening. Once that happens it never ends well. In barely 5 years time I have seen the UK change into such a dark place. I am lucky in a sense that I get to flee. I merely go back home in a month, sell my flat here and that's that. But if I'm honest, I don't see the UK surviving for another five years. Every democratic principle has been severely undermined and you've got Murdoch who constantly stokes division and hate because that's how he gets richer. This country is in a lot of trouble.

And another gem of a post.

Readers note: This poster is upset that ‘discussion’ is not happening. And yet, few if any female sportsperson was included on the IOC specific committees that decided that males could become female people originally. Certainly none were included in the 2015 commitee yet males who had transitioned were.

The extreme hypocrisy of posts from male people declaring that discussions are not happening, when they finally ARE happening, seems motivated by their distaste of the final decisions. When female athletes are asked, overwhelmingly they declare that they want their sport to remain protected to only include female people. Different organisations have asked with generally over 80% of replies confirming that female athletes of all ages, girls and women, say ‘No, thank you!’

However, that is not the discussion that this poster wishes to hear. They have been told repeatedly by support groups and peers that inclusion is the only solution. Yet, that inclusion means female people are excluded. Notice, readers, the questions about other category boundaries being removed for just a few was completely ignored. It always is. Those questions are never answered.

At last sporting federations are listening to female athletes AND to the experts. Those experts being the sports scientists, the endocrinologists who specialise in testosterone and estrogen, the developmental biologists and the elite female athletes and coaches. Ie. The people who should have been consulted in depth in the first place rather than people finding a ‘solution’ for male people and expecting female people to accommodate those male people’s wishes.

And no, reader, the UK isn’t going anywhere within the next five years. Even if Scotland eventually votes for independence, it will take a lot longer than 5 years to unpick everything. This is hyperbole is scaremongering and based on no factual basis at all.

Finally readers, I am sure that you all remember that Rupert Murdoch is Australian. And his media holdings are spread throughout the world and is not confined to the UK or Australia. This poster will encounter, what they describe in that hyperbolic attack as Murdoch’s division and hate, where ever they move.

Another description of that phenomenon is ‘factual reporting’ and I would hope that they would find that in every country they live.

Helleofabore · 20/09/2023 06:49

Here is another question for @EmiliaB71.

What is the difference between a male person who has had to have their testes removed due to injury or disease and a male person who removes them as part of an extreme body modification decision?

Why should a male who has a special identity be included in the female sports category and not those male people without testes?

And another question. What other athlete who has to make the decision to have a treatment for any health condition that reduces performance should be included in category that is not protected for their needs?

There are many health conditions that mean that some people simply cannot play sport. They have to live with the hand they are dealt. If a male with a trans identity chooses treatment options that lower their performance, who gave those athletes the idea that they should look at the female category for sports as an alternative, just because those male people may have presented in a feminine way and had a ‘reduced’ performance?

Again, the female sports categories are not consolation prizes for male people who want to dress and present themselves as they perceive female people dress and present themselves. And the female sport categories
are not there to validate a male athletes life choices. A male person can only ever live their life how they perceive a female person lives. And vice versa. It never can be that a male ‘lives as a female person’. Ever. It is simply not possible.

They only live the manifestation of their interpretation of what being female is.

Helleofabore · 20/09/2023 07:00

EmiliaB71 · 20/09/2023 00:12

They reduce though. Don't underestimate the long term effect of the muscle mass we lose. Obviously I'm not a top athlete, but it after three and a half years I can say that I notice how much more effort it takes, having to support the same skeletal structure with less muscle mass.
The thing is that they can measure that? So why don't they? Ultimately I don't even care about the elite level. If elite level sports remains the goal, then indeed why transition? I can't speak for others, but for me it doesn't make sense. I mostly worry about the potential effect for people who exercise recreationally, as a way to spend time with their friends.

Again, for the people in the back!

Just because a male has reduced performance, they never become female people.

A female person is not a reduced performance male!

And just having ‘less muscle mass to support a male skeleton’ is not the only factor. There are so many differences.

Just looking at the skeleton, pelvic structure and q-angles make a huge fucking difference! For balance, for speed, for agility for position for a slew of differences. Then it is skeletal proportions throughout the body and the mechanical advantages for leverage and movement. Hand and foot sizes.

Then comes the protective issues of female bones. They are less dense and therefore there are health risks.

The science is already known.

A male who reduces their performance does not become a female athlete, just a male athlete with reduced performance.

Female people are never failed/shorter/performance limited/smaller male people.

Helleofabore · 20/09/2023 07:15

EmiliaB71 · 20/09/2023 01:15

There are sports that never had that issue: squash for example. (I mean locally, not the highly competitive play of course) ...but in regional tournaments we often mixed in certain categories. It was great fun too. For tournaments I seem to remember that the ladies could enter in men's tournament with a higher ranking (to a certain degree) which worked really well. It was very competitive and nobody ever complained.

FFS!

Some sports have always had mixed sex sport! Do you understand that having two male people (either trans identified or not) play in a mixed sex event when there is regulation that there must be one female and one male person is a competitive advantage? But if a male with a trans identity plays with a female competitor- that is within the regulations.

So, YES! Some sports already have mixed sex events! It is well known and understood! Doesn’t mean that a male with a trans identity should take the place of a female athlete though when it is regulated for balance!

And it has been just as well known that athletes from lower categories can compete in a higher performance category in some sports. That is how categories work!

It is not that fucking hard to understand!

If you have a local sport where it is all mixed sex, fucking go for it !

It is unlikely those events or teams will change. It matters though if ONE female misses out on any opportunity because a male has taken the place of a female athlete.

Helleofabore · 20/09/2023 07:19

Honestly, the sparple that has been plonked down on this thread over the past days has been enlightening.

And it is definitely in keeping with the fucked up rhetoric of the woman who made such an outrageously obtuse statement in the first place. And has now been shown to have no fucking clue what she was even talking about.

MargotBamborough · 20/09/2023 07:24

Helleofabore · 20/09/2023 06:49

Here is another question for @EmiliaB71.

What is the difference between a male person who has had to have their testes removed due to injury or disease and a male person who removes them as part of an extreme body modification decision?

Why should a male who has a special identity be included in the female sports category and not those male people without testes?

And another question. What other athlete who has to make the decision to have a treatment for any health condition that reduces performance should be included in category that is not protected for their needs?

There are many health conditions that mean that some people simply cannot play sport. They have to live with the hand they are dealt. If a male with a trans identity chooses treatment options that lower their performance, who gave those athletes the idea that they should look at the female category for sports as an alternative, just because those male people may have presented in a feminine way and had a ‘reduced’ performance?

Again, the female sports categories are not consolation prizes for male people who want to dress and present themselves as they perceive female people dress and present themselves. And the female sport categories
are not there to validate a male athletes life choices. A male person can only ever live their life how they perceive a female person lives. And vice versa. It never can be that a male ‘lives as a female person’. Ever. It is simply not possible.

They only live the manifestation of their interpretation of what being female is.

Should a man who is only average height and weight be allowed to compete in the women's rowing, for example?

(Rowing being a sport where height, in particular leg length, and muscle mass give the greatest physical advantage, meaning that elite women are usually the height and weight of an average man and elite men are usually 6ft3 or taller.)

He can't help being only 5ft10 and 80kg, so why shouldn't he get to compete with the women?

MargotBamborough · 20/09/2023 07:28

Helleofabore · 20/09/2023 07:00

Again, for the people in the back!

Just because a male has reduced performance, they never become female people.

A female person is not a reduced performance male!

And just having ‘less muscle mass to support a male skeleton’ is not the only factor. There are so many differences.

Just looking at the skeleton, pelvic structure and q-angles make a huge fucking difference! For balance, for speed, for agility for position for a slew of differences. Then it is skeletal proportions throughout the body and the mechanical advantages for leverage and movement. Hand and foot sizes.

Then comes the protective issues of female bones. They are less dense and therefore there are health risks.

The science is already known.

A male who reduces their performance does not become a female athlete, just a male athlete with reduced performance.

Female people are never failed/shorter/performance limited/smaller male people.

Indeed. One of the reasons why men generally move faster than women, even when you control for height and muscle mass, is because a woman's pelvis is wide enough to fit a human baby through it, whereas a man's isn't. This fundamentally changes how men and women move.

How do you eliminate that advantage?

Helleofabore · 20/09/2023 07:33

Well exactly margot.

As the studies show, even a short male athlete has many advantages no female athlete of any height will have.

Grip strength is one. The male with the weakest grip strength as a male in the bottom quartile for that component will still beat many women in the top decile (10%) of women for grip strength.

And that q-angle gives so much more efficiency for the leg movement. And the different leverage points on all other bones and ligaments.

Let’s not forget during times of the menstrual cycle that women’s ligaments are looser. Making those movements slightly different, and less powerful AND that she is more prone to injury.

I mean, the list is endless. And that is not including non physical disadvantages. Such as access and quality of training from a particular age, encouragement in sports, time needed for caring roles even from an early age. That list of disadvantages are still significant even in 2023.

Helleofabore · 20/09/2023 07:37

MargotBamborough · 20/09/2023 07:28

Indeed. One of the reasons why men generally move faster than women, even when you control for height and muscle mass, is because a woman's pelvis is wide enough to fit a human baby through it, whereas a man's isn't. This fundamentally changes how men and women move.

How do you eliminate that advantage?

Yep. That q angle makes a huge difference in most movements from waist down

But male posters simply never quite comprehend that. For them, it is about muscle mass and what impacts that has.

It is misogyny on steroids that any male ever thought that female people should ever accommodate male people in this way in sport.

Helleofabore · 20/09/2023 07:43

EmiliaB71 · 20/09/2023 02:40

And what is the point of your post? Is it merely to try and insult me? If it is, you are going to be mighty disappointed. Plus. I've never claimed being a cisgender woman. I'm a trans woman and I am much more acutely aware of any differences in biology that exist than you could possibly imagine.

And yet, you have shown you have no fucking idea about female physiology at all!

How surprising!

MargotBamborough · 20/09/2023 07:51

Helleofabore · 20/09/2023 07:43

And yet, you have shown you have no fucking idea about female physiology at all!

How surprising!

I missed this gem.

Helleofabore · 20/09/2023 07:55

The emotional manipulation being used by emilia is all too common.

It even resorts to emotional threats.

And the new open categories don't fix anything...because as I hinted previously: where do you think they will get the prize money from? the men's? Hmm when was the last time you saw men give something up for a fairer world...

Meaning what? … women, you will lose out if your suggest moving male people into a third or open category?

I mostly worry about the potential effect for people who exercise recreationally, as a way to spend time with their friends.

Meaning what? … women, you will lose out on spending time with your lovely male friends with trans identities if you insist that female sporting events and teams are protected for only female athletes?

And

They reduce though. Don't underestimate the long term effect of the muscle mass we lose. Obviously I'm not a top athlete, but it after three and a half years I can say that I notice how much more effort it takes, having to support the same skeletal structure with less muscle mass.

Meaning what?… women, take pity on males who have limited their performance through their medical decisions and allow weakened males into your sports because they are weakened and cannot keep up with other males. Therefore, preserve their egos and let them play with you in their weakened state.

They must understand if they stop suppressing testosterone, their bodies regain advantage! It has been even shown that changes in training gets back many advantages in some studies.

and

In barely 5 years time I have seen the UK change into such a dark place.

This meaning is absolutely clear and the rest of that post clarified further. So much emotional manipulation and use of cognitive distortions such as catastrophising. And hyperbole. Oh! The hyperbole.

It is remarkable when you see it.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 20/09/2023 08:01

time for this as well I think

 "I don't give a shit about the scientific explanations. If they identify as a women, they get to compete in sports"
Helleofabore · 20/09/2023 08:02

MargotBamborough · 20/09/2023 07:51

I missed this gem.

Yes. A male poster outraged that someone dare insult them!!

On a thread where they have plonked down insult after fucking insult to girls and women without having a fucking clue they have posted in such a misogynistic way.

Outstanding effort!

All because in the past some male people decided that the best solution for just a few - they won’t dominate male people was to tell everyone to simply accept that those male people were exactly like female people. No questions allowed, that is unkind and insulting.

And now, any male who wishes it can declare to the world all the pseudo-science as material reality and then falsely claim that the real science has not been done yet!

Apparently, it is all so complicated!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/09/2023 08:02

But if I'm honest, I don't see the UK surviving for another five years.

Oh yes I expect it will just dissolve into a pile of dust before then.

Helleofabore · 20/09/2023 08:05

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/09/2023 08:02

But if I'm honest, I don't see the UK surviving for another five years.

Oh yes I expect it will just dissolve into a pile of dust before then.

It is the heat eresh. It will dry up and blow away. Like Australia has… oh wait… that has taken millions of years… but hey… 5 years might be a literary device…

Helleofabore · 20/09/2023 08:12

Is it the wearing of a bra that makes women’s sports ‘women’s sports’?

Is that why those NB runners wore crop tops? Male people think wearing crop tops and sports bras means some one is ineligible to compete as the sex they materially are?

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 20/09/2023 08:13

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/09/2023 08:02

But if I'm honest, I don't see the UK surviving for another five years.

Oh yes I expect it will just dissolve into a pile of dust before then.

I heard it was going to dissolve into the sea like a giant alka seltzer

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/09/2023 08:14

Oh really? Cool!

Igneococcus · 20/09/2023 08:15

I am much more acutely aware of any differences in biology that exist than you could possibly imagine.

No evidence of that at all in your posts, though.

MargotBamborough · 20/09/2023 08:15

EmiliaB71 · 20/09/2023 02:40

And what is the point of your post? Is it merely to try and insult me? If it is, you are going to be mighty disappointed. Plus. I've never claimed being a cisgender woman. I'm a trans woman and I am much more acutely aware of any differences in biology that exist than you could possibly imagine.

Emilia.

You are, by your own admission, a trans woman. This means that you were born with a penis and testes, and without ovaries, a uterus, a vagina or the genetic coding to grow natural breasts during puberty.

The women on this site are acutely aware of their own biology.

We remember what it feels like to start growing breasts, when the slightest knock to that area would cause a sharp and distressing pain.

Virtually all of us have at some point menstruated. We remember when and where we were the first time we went to the toilet and saw blood in our underwear. We have had to get to grips with the different types of sanitary protection. Many of us have experienced severe pain each month. Many of us have experienced flooding, often in an inconvenient place, requiring a change of clothes.

There is an entire board on this site dedicated to women who are trying to conceive, many of whom take their temperature every morning and use ovulation test strips to figure out when they are ovulating in order to time sex for a successful conception.

There is another board dedicated to pregnancy, where women who are pregnant are talking to each other about scans, nausea, hyperemesis gravidarum, what it feels like when their babies kick inside them, gestational diabetes, pre-eclampsia, what to pack in their hospital bag, how to prevent stretch marks and so on.

There is another board dedicated to infertility, where women who have so far been unable to conceive are discussing their blood test results, their antral follicle counts, NHS wait times for IVF, the best/cheapest clinics abroad for those unfortunate enough to live in an area where the NHS will not help them at all, sharing stories of their own trauma resulting from the fact that their ovaries and uterus do not seem to want to fulfil their biological purpose.

There is a board dedicated to miscarriage and pregnancy loss, where women share their pain at having lost very much wanted babies, where they comfort each other, where they sometimes ask for practical advice about when to go to the EPU or when to try again or even how to try and catch a 7 week embryo as you miscarry and bring it to the hospital for genetic testing. They are discussing which doctors might be able to help them, how much it costs to get private treatment, what medication they are on, and how to get prescribed progesterone when their GP is clueless, unsupportive and overworked. There are also women on there who have had a full term stillbirth.

There is a board dedicated to contraception, where women ask for advice about pills vs coils vs implants because nothing has worked well for them, or complain about the fact that they want their tubes tied but no doctor will agree to do it in case they change their mind about wanting children. (They apparently know their own minds less than 10 year olds who want puberty blockers.)

There is a board for pregnancy choices, where women with unwanted pregnancies seek advice about getting an abortion.

There is a board about childbirth, where women are discussing the pros and cons of an elective C-section (which involves cutting through multiple layers of abdominal tissue and leaves a permanent scar on each layer) vs a vaginal birth (which might result in forceps, ventouse, an episiotomy or a tear right through from her vagina to her anus, leaving her doubly incontinent). Or they are asking for advice about whether to agree to an induction, which makes labour more difficult and painful and more likely to result in the interventions described above, but they have been given dire warnings about the risk of stillbirth increasing if they do not agree to be induced. Or they are discussing their very traumatic births which have left them physically and mentally scarred, with little or no support from the NHS.

There is a board for women going through the menopause, many of whom are experiencing debilitating side effects which ruin their enjoyment of life but are unable to get HRT due to the shortage (which is exacerbated by the fact that these drugs which women need are also being prescribed to trans women who merely want them).

All these women are very acutely aware of their own female biology.

You are not aware of any of these things because you have not experienced them and never will.

I do not wish to be unkind, but this is what it really means to live as a woman, which is why so many women on Mumset are unmoved by people who were born male claiming that they are women because they identify as a woman and love as a woman.

And it comes across as extremely arrogant to say that you are more acutely aware of the differences in our biology than we can possibly imagine. We don't need to imagine it. We are living it. It is you who cannot possibly imagine it.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 20/09/2023 08:16

I listened to the blocked and reported episode upthread

listening to Emma Vigland repeating nonsense she doesn’t really understand like a religious maniac was actually a bit sad

Igneococcus · 20/09/2023 08:20

I am lucky in a sense that I get to flee. I merely go back home in a month, sell my flat here and that's that.

Where are you going @EmiliaB71 ? Because as a citizen (albeit not a resident at the moment) of a big EU country and with colleagues in several others and also in North America I can tell you that there is a bit of a fin de siecle feeling in many Western countries at the moment.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/09/2023 08:23

@MargotBamborough 👏