Another stonking column from Hadley Freeman

[SpringCalling]

‘Liberal’ thought police echo Salem witch trials

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/21eff8d0-fc8e-11ed-aa31-73394e195d29?shareToken=60d60e218a05fd3d5eac761e0767a2e5

If you prefer, you could give some of the characteristics of the gender identity that cis men and trans men share that makes them both men

you are so very sure you’re right

surely this should be easy for you?

Since you’re willing to engage with those who don’t agree with you @TraumatisedGooner ?

1. How rules are applied isn't what defines an echo chamber. When almost everyone in a space feels the same way, and hounds anyone that feels differently, you're in an echo chamber.
2. I'm kind of wondering just how vile you'd have to be to get banned from Reddit for transphobia given the things I commonly read there.

Mmm

The gender identity shared by trans men and cis men @TraumatisedGooner ? What’s it like?

just a few words and I’ll stop being obnoxious to you on this matter

So the majority of the population is in an echo chamber?

Have you an example of vile transphobia from Reddit? In fact, a few just disagreeing with TWAW would do it.

Rules and the application thereof are part of an echo chamber. Many sites squash any dissenting opinion, MN doesn't, people are free to disagree, as you are doing.

Having a minority position, but the freedom to write about it is the very antithesis of an echo chamber.

On point 1, I have repeatedly invited you to explain your beliefs. Surely that’s how you convert people? Then you can start to offset the echo chamber

As far as I’m aware there’s no word limit on MN so you can have 70, 700 or 7000 words if that’s what it takes to make your argument Gooner

There seems to be a theme in the list of people killed for being transgender.

"Two men were convicted of first-degree murder…"
"..was killed by four men"
"..a group of at least seven men"
"..the assailant men"
"…surrounded by two young men"
"..a gang of armed men"
"..fatally shot in Chicago by a man"
"Newark Man Acquitted in Murder"
"…murdered in Arkansas by a man"
"..Texas man gets 37 years for murdering transgender woman"
"..man Sentenced to 50 Years in Prison for Killing Transgender Teen "

The only occurences of the word "woman" in that list are preceded by 'trans' or 'transgender'. Why then is it women who are targeted, threatened, abused and vilified by trans rights activists?

I think your understanding of the term ‘echo chamber’ is as sound as your understanding of ‘intersectionality’ is.

It’s not ‘rules’ that determine anything. But I find myself unsurprised you’ve reduced things to rules.

It strikes me that if you were actually interested in discussion rather than some sort of posturing about correcting the evil “GCs”, you’d answer when people ask you to clarify your terminology or explain your reasoning.

That’s not hounding you off the site. It’s asking you to be willing to discuss your claims.

As for, ‘my thoughts are too complex to express in under X number of words’ as an excuse… many of us on here are completely comfortable with reading long, complex arguments. Knock yourself out.

I am on this site because I am willing to engage with those that don't agree with me

That's not true. We can all see it.
If you were, why don't you specify what it is that I think, that you disagree with? You won't.

It’s remarkably offensive for GCs to claim they are experiencing something similar. It’s downright hilarious for them to be making such claims when the media is predominantly on side and the government is entirely on side.

How so?

Government - most of the western world have by and large introduced gender self id in order to facilliate trans people.

Sports - most institutions tried to make womens sport "womens + sport". That is clearly not working so they are still trying by creating a catagory just for trans people.

Media - the BBC and Guardian always cover trans stories only, almost always ignoring the women's side completely.

As a group you could argue that Trans are the most powerful in the world ever after white men.

How long did it take for women to get rights?
How long dd it take for Black people to get rights?
How long did it take for gay people to get rights?

How long did it take for blind people to get rights?
How long did it take for deaf people to get rights?
How long did it take for physically impaired people to get rights?
How long did it take for mentaly ill people to get rights?

The list can go on but the answer always the same - an awfully long time.

Trans come out of nowhere, has all rights, manages to get privillages and somehow - they are the most vunerable.

I am VERY confused.

I very much doubt I could adequately explain my understanding of gender in fewer than seventy words

Can you explain why I, a woman, am supposed to believe male people are women, to my disadvantage? If not, you're onto a loser, aren't you.

I’ll read a post that’s longer than 70 words Gooner and I’ve got a really short ooh I want ice cream!

maybe gooner is struggling to realise he’s on MN. He’s confused it with kiwi farms. And now seems to think he might be dealing with twitter-style post length limits.

If you want to write us 100k words on gender identity theory, knock yourself out.

Absolutely Gooner, please do. I am always willing to challenge my thinking but not on the basis of 'because I say so'. You take as many words as you need to tell us what a woman is (preferably in a way that does not exclude female bodied non-trans people from being one - i.e. don't rely on a fallacious belief that everyone has a gender identity), why we need to segregate sports by gender identity and where the swathes of agender people fit into that etc. I really am willing to read anything you write as long as it does not assume my identity or go against scientifically proven concepts (though if you can challenge the science using proper scientific methods then that is also, of course, OK). One of the problems has been people refusing to explain themselves, define terminology so if you will do so now, that's really great.

Trans folk have been around since the dawn of humanity.

Apparently.

Well for sure there is evidence, in many many cultures, of males and females who were not conforming to the sex-based roles, assigned according to their sexed body type. This seems common enough that I personally believe it's a universal* part of our human experience.

• (At least in cultures where there are sexual stereotypes in place, which so far seems all of them, but in the future who knows)

These people can be regarded as trans if you like, but notably surgical modifications were not available until very recently.

actual good surgery is still not yet available

Perhaps we could abandon the Cone of Shame and just nick the Cone of Silence from Get Smart?

On the 'poverty tourists ' theme - we seemed to have loads of them in the Labour Party aeons ago. Often couples for some reason. They moved into Hackney coz it was so radical and leftwing . And cheap...back then...