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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Another stonking column from Hadley Freeman

144 replies

SpringCalling · 28/05/2023 08:48

‘Liberal’ thought police echo Salem witch trials

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/21eff8d0-fc8e-11ed-aa31-73394e195d29?shareToken=60d60e218a05fd3d5eac761e0767a2e5

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
literalviolence · 29/05/2023 09:59

IncomingTraffic · 29/05/2023 09:30

This one?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/e359a0e3-86ca-4b94-b628-2de4cdd7a196?shareToken=c469d1e61a4f7cbf297d0eada8b37f0f

It’s a single paragraph but he’s clearly bemused by males claiming to menstruate.

Good on him. Bad on society for cancelling women who speak this truth and not men who do. Trans people sure know who a woman when they're called out don't they?

RoyalCorgi · 29/05/2023 10:04

Thanks, IncomingTraffic - that's the one. I think he's a good person to have on our side (is there anyone who doesn't love Richard Coles?) but it depends whether he's brave enough to go full TERF.

nilsmousehammer · 29/05/2023 10:15

Sadly I think this time around in an election it will be voting to keep the bigger of the evils out of power to limit the harm and hang on for another five years. Otherwise Labour will get in anyway, just on a very tiny turn out. Which won't bother them. Or we'll get the worst of all worlds: a lib/left coalition of all the extremist nutjobs.

I will not be voting for: I will be tactically voting for the least harmful of all the unwanted options, and for the minimum harm done in the next parliament in the hope that this gives time for people with greater sanity to rise through the ranks.

literalviolence · 29/05/2023 10:18

RoyalCorgi · 29/05/2023 10:04

Thanks, IncomingTraffic - that's the one. I think he's a good person to have on our side (is there anyone who doesn't love Richard Coles?) but it depends whether he's brave enough to go full TERF.

He will be seen as full Terf just for saying this. Anything not fully affirmative is enough to make you the devil.

HowardKirksConscience · 29/05/2023 11:50

Richard Coles is very clearly not going to be romantically interested in any 'version' of a man who is not a man (ie a trans man) so maybe he can see why women aren't going to be fooled into accepting that a trans woman is in fact a woman. He doesn't appear to be conflating the T with the LGB, thank goodness.

IncomingTraffic · 29/05/2023 13:21

I haven’t a clue who to vote for either. Not that it matters. I live in a very safe labour seat and it makes precisely bugger all difference how I vote anyway.

It really is a balancing the many evils and trying to figure which is least awful in British politics right now.

TraumatisedGooner · 29/05/2023 13:43

nilsmousehammer · 28/05/2023 16:24

Intersectionality, like ablism and inclusion, only ever matters or is mentioned when it happens to be a means of TQ+ political power.

When it permits scolding, bullying, control and power.

If there was a genuine care for such things then the terms would be actually understood and there would be concern - oh say, for example, women of faiths, cultures and disabilities that mean they cannot share a space for some activities with males regardless of how the male person chooses to identify. And there would be a recognition that female only spaces must be preserved and respected for the sake of access and inclusion alongside mixed sex spaces for TQ+ people.

I have no respect for those who use those terms to get their own way without a clue as to their meaning or any true commitment to their value.

Where are the TQ+ people who have been arrested by the police for speaking the truth, because of malicious allegations?
Where are the TQ+ people who have been kettled, screamed at, voices drowned out, punched, had liquids thrown over them, had bones broken because they tried to discuss their experience in a public place?
Where are the TQ+ people who have been harassed and assaulted while police stood by and watched, or shrugged, and who have made reports with evidence of crimes others would be arrested for and seen the police shrug?
Where are the TQ+ forums relentlessly bullied and controlled in an attempt to doxx and threaten TQ+ voices into silence?
Where are the TQ+ people who have lost their jobs for being found out to be TQ+ ?
Where are the TQ+ people who have had to grass roots fund raise to defend their existing rights in law in court against wealthy, tax payer funded lobbies?
Where are the tides of death and rape threats towards TQ+ people for daring to state gender ideology?
What labour is being demanded of TQ+ people?

These are the features of actual oppression. It has taken years of women relentlessly talking here, writing, raising awareness, shouting into the void, to get to the point where the truth is in the public press - against the control of the TQ+ lobby who had the power to set a policy for the press that disguised and silenced women's truth in TQ+ political favour. This journalist had to leave her job to be allowed to speak the truth.

Perhaps 'oppression' has been redefined to mean the same as 'genocide' in the UK: someone who hasn't done what I told them to.

Which really is the ultimate in privileged, self centred ignorance, to have so little knowledge or concept of what these words really mean that 'no' is the worst they can imagine.

No-one has ever made malicious allegations about trans people.
No-one has ever been violent towards trans people.
The police always do a great job of protecting trans people.
No-one has ever doxxed trans people in an attempt to silence people.
No-one trans person has ever lost their job because of their identity.
The gender critical movement is definitely grass roots.

Your denial of reality is dangerous. Your movement's persistent desire to paint yourself as the victim, and as the oppressed, by a tiny minority of people is dangerous.

Kiwi Farms - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiwi_Farms

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 29/05/2023 13:46

So, you’re still on the internet attacking people for not sharing a belief system you’re unable to explain

don’t you ever feel embarrassed for yourself?

TraumatisedGooner · 29/05/2023 13:47

IncomingTraffic · 29/05/2023 09:31

To be honest, anyone writing a sentence s about something being ‘remarkably offensive’ and the using dehumanising language ‘GCs’ to refer to women discussing and standing up for female people’s rights is a lost cause.

I was under the impression that gender critical is a label your movement both developed and embraces? It's certainly not my intent to dehumanise anyone. If there's an accurate descriptor you'd prefer I'll happily use it.

TraumatisedGooner · 29/05/2023 13:51

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 29/05/2023 13:46

So, you’re still on the internet attacking people for not sharing a belief system you’re unable to explain

don’t you ever feel embarrassed for yourself?

Saying anything that contradicts the echo chamber here is like facing the hydra. Every post generates several replies and every response to those replies generates several more. I do not have anywhere near enough time to respond to everything and you'll just have to tolerate that. Harrassing me across different threads isn't going to draw me into responding to you, it just highlights you as being singularly obnoxious.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 29/05/2023 13:52

Man alive

There are 58 people listed in your linked list of people killed for being trans in the last 43 years

this is of course dreadful. No one should be murdered full stop, but certainly not for characteristics they have no choice about

care to hazard a guess how many women have been killed in the past 43 years because they’re women?

you really have no clue do you?

SinnerBoy · 29/05/2023 13:54

Kiwi Farms may be anti trans, but it's not populated by GC / sex realist women.

GC / sex realist women aren't threatening and attack transw, or sending rape threats, complete with bondage clothes, knives and baseball bats; that's how the transw side behaves.

I don't know why you seem to find that so difficult to understand.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 29/05/2023 13:55

TraumatisedGooner · 29/05/2023 13:51

Saying anything that contradicts the echo chamber here is like facing the hydra. Every post generates several replies and every response to those replies generates several more. I do not have anywhere near enough time to respond to everything and you'll just have to tolerate that. Harrassing me across different threads isn't going to draw me into responding to you, it just highlights you as being singularly obnoxious.

You are happy to be rude to people on the internet who object to being referred to as cis gender

you define cis gender as someone whose gender identity matches their sex

I’m simply inviting you to explain what the gender identity that matches my sex is like

the fact that you are unable to do so should give you pause

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 29/05/2023 13:56

Also I’ll take obnoxious. It’s one of my favourite things about myself

Ereshkigalangcleg · 29/05/2023 13:56

I was under the impression that gender critical is a label your movement both developed and embraces?

Gender critical women, people, activists all fine. "GCs" is a dehumanising label meant as a slur.

AmuseBish · 29/05/2023 13:59

When you lie about people, gooner, you can't be surprised to get multiple responses. You said I was bullying when I described my experiences of not getting answers to questions.

It is somewhat amusing to me that you are proving my point about honesty and not being able to answer questions.

I would suggest engaging in good faith, articulating your point clearly, but you genuinely seem not to be capable of it. So perhaps scrolling on by is the best response.

nilsmousehammer · 29/05/2023 14:01

Sweetheart, I could go through those links one by one and explain, in depth, why you're making false equivalences and talking about appropriation and long stretches to try and fit it all in, and you know it and I know it. But what's the point?

No, T people are not experiencing what the TQ+ lobby (many of which are not T but like getting to bully and control and abuse and scream and throw things) are unleashing on women. If it was, it would be front page news.

That is the difference in power balance. It's front and centre. It's evidenced, objective reality.

IncomingTraffic · 29/05/2023 14:02

You do know that this is not kiwi farms, don’t you?

And you get several replies because multiple people respond to you in several different ways.

Has it escaped you that there is diversity of opinion within MN FWR threads. You are actually communicate with individuals who are able to - and keen to - form and express their own opinions.

It’s not some sort of hive mind. MNers disagree with each other all the time about anything and everything.

nilsmousehammer · 29/05/2023 14:03

Incidentally, what women here want and are arguing for is for female needs to be met too. Alongside. With.

It is the TQ+ political lobby that insists that they have to settle for nothing so that men can have everything. How on earth are you managing to convince yourself that's not insanely oppressive? How on earth are you managing to believe that could be ok?

SinnerBoy · 29/05/2023 14:12

TraumatisedGoon

On the "echo chamber" front, MN is the exact opposite of one of those. You are free to write and post your pro trans guff, even though most of us disagree with you.

Reddit and the like simply ban anyone who isn't slavishly and unequivocally pro trans; now that's what an echo chamber is.

IncomingTraffic · 29/05/2023 14:14

SinnerBoy · 29/05/2023 14:12

TraumatisedGoon

On the "echo chamber" front, MN is the exact opposite of one of those. You are free to write and post your pro trans guff, even though most of us disagree with you.

Reddit and the like simply ban anyone who isn't slavishly and unequivocally pro trans; now that's what an echo chamber is.

Good point.

Are you mistaking many people not agreeing with your points for an ‘echo chamber’?

DialSquare · 29/05/2023 14:16

Saying anything that contradicts the echo chamber here is like facing the hydra. Every post generates several replies and every response to those replies generates several more. I do not have anywhere near enough time to respond to everything and you'll just have to tolerate that. Harrassing me across different threads isn't going to draw me into responding to you, it just highlights you as being singularly obnoxious.

You could have answered the question in much less words than above. It just highlights that you don't actually have an answer.

And the absolute irony of someone who thinks that Men are Women if they say they are, accusing others of the denial of reality is priceless.

Also, this is not an echo chamber. Most of the population do not believe humans can change sex. It's you that is in an echo chamber.

And lastly, if you think currently being an Arsenal fan is traumatic, you can only have been supporting them for all of two minutes.

TurkishClouds · 29/05/2023 14:29

TraumatisedGooner · 28/05/2023 14:41

I'd think that's a fairly obvious case of intersectionality. You can be oppressed in some respects, not in others, and oppressor in others.

This is nonsense.

Women = oppressed
Black people = oppressed
Black women = doubly oppressed

That's intersectionality.

TraumatisedGooner · 29/05/2023 14:31

DialSquare · 29/05/2023 14:16

Saying anything that contradicts the echo chamber here is like facing the hydra. Every post generates several replies and every response to those replies generates several more. I do not have anywhere near enough time to respond to everything and you'll just have to tolerate that. Harrassing me across different threads isn't going to draw me into responding to you, it just highlights you as being singularly obnoxious.

You could have answered the question in much less words than above. It just highlights that you don't actually have an answer.

And the absolute irony of someone who thinks that Men are Women if they say they are, accusing others of the denial of reality is priceless.

Also, this is not an echo chamber. Most of the population do not believe humans can change sex. It's you that is in an echo chamber.

And lastly, if you think currently being an Arsenal fan is traumatic, you can only have been supporting them for all of two minutes.

I very much doubt I could adequately explain my understanding of gender in fewer than seventy words. I love your "no, you're in an echo chamber!" retort. I am on this site because I am willing to engage with those that don't agree with me. That's the precise opposite of being in an echo chamber.

SinnerBoy · 29/05/2023 14:33

Sorry, so now you agree that you were wrong about MN being an echo chamber and agree that it's very much not an echo chamber?