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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Brighton NHS trust recommends drug-induced male breastfeeding in their maternity protocols

205 replies

zibzibara · 20/05/2023 08:58

https://www.bsuh.nhs.uk/maternity/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2021/01/MP005-Perinatal-Care-for-Trans-and-Non-Binary-People.pdf

This is part of their maternity protocols for perinatal care. In the Infant feeding section:

"5.5.7 Non-gestational parents may wish to participate in feeding their
infants using their own bodies. Cis women who have previously breastfed may have the most success in relactating. Trans women and cis women who have not been pregnant may also be able to induce lactation to some extent. Methods for inducing lactation include using galactagoues and physical stimulation. Alternatively, some families choose to use supplemental nursing systems with expressed milk or formula."

They cite this website in the reference list: http://www.milkjunkies.net/2013/05/trans-women-and-breastfeeding-personal.html

Notably they do not cite any source which has tested the composition of any such male secretions for safety and nutritional value.

https://www.bsuh.nhs.uk/maternity/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2021/01/MP005-Perinatal-Care-for-Trans-and-Non-Binary-People.pdf

OP posts:
Thread gallery
21
gogohmm · 21/05/2023 11:02

@MaybeDoctor

A very fair analysis. I knew 2 women in the USA who breastfed adoptive babies at least to some extent (I think they both did supplement with formula but as maternity/adoptive unpaid leave is only 3 months this is common), i remember a trial of men 23 years ago there and they produced nutritional secretions but not sufficient to sustain an infant, these were not trans so no cross sex hormones involved.

Forget gender identity politics. Is it safe is the only question we should be asking, I believe the answer is we don't know. My suspicion is that allowing an infant to "suckle" is not going to do any harm as long as they are fed formula adequately. I just hope scientists and medics are looking at evidence before a baby fails to thrive. The hormones are a secondary issue, again study it! The study I saw was gay men rather than transgender

Lilifer · 21/05/2023 11:12
Confused
BigMaggieShoes · 21/05/2023 12:07

Men do not have the anatomical structures in their gynocomastic moobs to produce colostrum, or anything but a thin, watery chemical slurry.

Brighton NHS trust recommends drug-induced male breastfeeding in their maternity protocols
HBGKC · 21/05/2023 12:29

zibzibara · 20/05/2023 08:58

https://www.bsuh.nhs.uk/maternity/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2021/01/MP005-Perinatal-Care-for-Trans-and-Non-Binary-People.pdf

This is part of their maternity protocols for perinatal care. In the Infant feeding section:

"5.5.7 Non-gestational parents may wish to participate in feeding their
infants using their own bodies. Cis women who have previously breastfed may have the most success in relactating. Trans women and cis women who have not been pregnant may also be able to induce lactation to some extent. Methods for inducing lactation include using galactagoues and physical stimulation. Alternatively, some families choose to use supplemental nursing systems with expressed milk or formula."

They cite this website in the reference list: http://www.milkjunkies.net/2013/05/trans-women-and-breastfeeding-personal.html

Notably they do not cite any source which has tested the composition of any such male secretions for safety and nutritional value.

From the NHS doc:

"Gender reassignment is a protected characteristic under the Equality Act 2010.3 This applies whether the person has proposed, is currently undergoing, or has completed any part of their transition process. Medical assistance is not a necessary component of the transition process for this protection in law to apply."

Is that true..?

PomegranateOfPersephone · 21/05/2023 12:37

HBGKC · 21/05/2023 12:29

From the NHS doc:

"Gender reassignment is a protected characteristic under the Equality Act 2010.3 This applies whether the person has proposed, is currently undergoing, or has completed any part of their transition process. Medical assistance is not a necessary component of the transition process for this protection in law to apply."

Is that true..?

Show quote history

Yes it is true.

In my opinion the legal fiction of the GRA should be repealed and gender reassignment should be protected under the same category as religious and philosophical beliefs.

nilsmousehammer · 21/05/2023 12:39

In the history of mankind have we ever had a generation of men who want to use babies to have their nipples suckled for emotional and other forms of self satisfaction?

How appropriate is it to use a baby to provide you with oral sensory stimulation for at best, your emotional needs?

And this is continuing to contribute to the narrative that women are just human lego and pregnancy is nothing more than a container (ignoring all the many and amazingly complicated interactions between mother and child's bodies through nine months) and fluid (of any kind, what the hell). This is all solely so that men can find a way to own pregnancy and ensure there's no remaining land of womanhood they haven't owned. The attitude towards women and children underpinning this, the quite fantastic selfishness involved, is appalling. And we're supposed to celebrate it.

HBGKC · 21/05/2023 13:41

"Gender reassignment is a protected characteristic under the Equality Act 2010.3 This applies whether the person has proposed, is currently undergoing, or has completed any part of their transition process. Medical assistance is not a necessary component of the transition process for this protection in law to apply."

But isn't this essentially self-ID..? Anyone who proposes (even just today) that they might begin a 'process of transition' (whatever that is), has the protection of the Equality Act..?

I thought Gender Re-assignment and NOT Gender Identity (whatever that is) was the protected characteristic..?

turbonerd · 21/05/2023 14:04

NotBuyingThis · 21/05/2023 10:09

Yes. This MUST be stopped.

Most posters are (rightly) mainly concerned about the effects on the baby.
There are also significant effects for the woman who has given birth and for women generally as a sex class.
I already mentioned issues related to the benefits of breastfeeding for the mother.
But let's not forget the damage this is doing to women overall.
Erased by referring to us as birthing people, chestfeeders etc
Now anyone (or anyone who says they are a woman) can breastfeed.
Remember maternity is a protected status under equality legislation and there are protections for women who breastfeed. (Not that you would know it - I complained to my trust on behalf of a breastfeeding colleague recently returned to work, about the lack of appropriate places for her to pump and also the need for protected breaks in order for her to pump. I put my complaint on the hospital intranet for all to see. The CEO said "yes, we must look into that" and that was the last I heard).
In the USA a woman lost a sex discrimination case relating to lack of support for breastfeeding/pumping on grounds that men can breastfeed too. I think the basis for that assertion was in relation to trans men, ie women who breastfeed. But I think in a case like this I wouldn't put it past lawyers/courts to suddenly recognise that these are males who are breastfeeding.
Throw in proposals to change surrogacy law so that commissioning parents will become legal parents at birth, which will create a class of woman who gives birth but is not legally a mother or parent. What does that mean for women's rights/maternity rights? I don't want to derail the thread into a discussion about surrogacy, there are quite a few threads about the proposals if anyone is interested. There is also a two minute (about three clicks plus name and address) template letter that Nordic Model Now and StopSurrogacyNowUK produced circulating, I can post the link if anyone wants it.

The fact is this is an out and out attack on women and women's rights which we have to do everything possible to oppose.

Show quote history

Absolutely all of this.
It is all of our rights as women on the Line here.

ScrollingLeaves · 21/05/2023 14:12

Helleofabore
Thank you for your contributions to this thread based on your ability to analysis reports scientifically.

FrancescaContini · 21/05/2023 14:25

HBGKC · 21/05/2023 13:41

"Gender reassignment is a protected characteristic under the Equality Act 2010.3 This applies whether the person has proposed, is currently undergoing, or has completed any part of their transition process. Medical assistance is not a necessary component of the transition process for this protection in law to apply."

But isn't this essentially self-ID..? Anyone who proposes (even just today) that they might begin a 'process of transition' (whatever that is), has the protection of the Equality Act..?

I thought Gender Re-assignment and NOT Gender Identity (whatever that is) was the protected characteristic..?

“Medical assistance is not an essential component of the transition process” - so what exactly is the “transition process”, in that case?
What IS “gender reassignment” if there’s no “medical assistance”?

HBGKC · 21/05/2023 14:40

I have tracked down the relevant section of the Equality Act on www.legislation.gov.uk:

7
Gender reassignment
(1)
A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex."

So it looks as if the crucial phrase there is "or other attributes of sex", because that is so vague as to be meaningless, and could just mean "tomorrow I might want to wear a skirt."

I agree, the GRA needs to be repealed and we need to start again, beginning by DEFINING THE RELEVANT TERMS: male, female, sex, gender, process, re-assigning & physiological would do for starters.

PatatiPatatras · 21/05/2023 15:07

MaybeDoctor · 21/05/2023 09:38

I am gender critical and have been horrified by the whole shift towards 'birthing people', 'pregnant person' and 'chestfeeding'. Talk about minimising the unique and special role of women!

However, the idea of men breastfeeding definitely isn't new and has always been technically possible (men have milk ducts although far less of them), although it is vanishingly rare. At university I had a very tedious summer job involving categorizing articles in medical journals and one day came across an article about induced lactation which gave a case study of a man lactating in order to feed a baby, although to a limited degree. I remember that I found it fascinating and read out paragraphs to the rest of the office! This was back in 1994 and the article would have been published around that time (as we categorized recent journals as they were printed), although I cannot for the life of me remember which journal.

Many years later I became a breastfeeding peer supporter and along the way learned about re-lactation, mostly via domperidone and pumping. Sadly this was quite a common query on the helpline as new mums often hadn't been given proper support in the early days, had given up and then wanted to get re-started a bit later down the line. This can also be done using a re-lactation device (basically a tiny tube leading from a formula milk supply - the tube can be taped to the side of the breast so that baby latches on, receives milk via the tube and the breast is simultaneously stimulated to produce its own milk).

Induced lactation is a much bigger thing in the USA due to the higher rates of newborn adoption and adoptive mothers then wanting to start breastfeeding. Also for surrogacy arrangements. It is the same process as relactation (domperidone, pumping and using a relactation device), but much harder work as the nursing mother hasn't given birth and had the hormonal changes that help to kickstart the milk supply.

So the idea of men feeding hasn't just come about via gender identity politics - it is already known although very, very rare - however if it is used as the main means of feeding a baby it raises significant ethical questions. The main issues seem to me to be the risks of drug transfer via the bloodstream and the interruption to the milk supply of the mother, if the baby is not feeding from her.

🙄😡

The idea of men wanting to breastfeed is not new. They've been trying for yonks with all sorts of chemical concoctions hence past articles. men do not naturallt lactate nor do they have the internal organs to do so.

The idea of men breastfeeding should definitely be seen as part of an extremist movement or the rational of a cult. It is not rare; it is non existent without heavy medicalisation which is not just a question of ethical issues.

It is definitely detrimental to the infant. Infants and their mothers shouldn't suffer for us to remember this. There is no grey line here of potential candidates.

I still struggle to believe anyone would consider this possibility that I still don't believe this is what this nhs trust advocates.

PomegranateOfPersephone · 21/05/2023 17:35

HBGKC · 21/05/2023 13:41

"Gender reassignment is a protected characteristic under the Equality Act 2010.3 This applies whether the person has proposed, is currently undergoing, or has completed any part of their transition process. Medical assistance is not a necessary component of the transition process for this protection in law to apply."

But isn't this essentially self-ID..? Anyone who proposes (even just today) that they might begin a 'process of transition' (whatever that is), has the protection of the Equality Act..?

I thought Gender Re-assignment and NOT Gender Identity (whatever that is) was the protected characteristic..?

To my mind it is essentially self identification, particularly as no one is allowed to ask to see a GRC, nor to disclose to anyone else that a particular person has one, and as I understand it no one needs a GRC anyway to change the sex markers on official documentation with the exception of the birth certificate. A birth certificate is a document recording a person’s situation at birth and therefore I don’t believe it should be able to be altered by any means anyway.

The GRA is bad law.

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 21/05/2023 19:48

The GRA and Equality Act are both very poorly written (hardly surprising in the latter case, it was a rush job to combine and update nearly 100 pieces of separate existing legislation) - and the way the EA is often interpreted does indeed create de facto self ID for most purposes.

However the EQ prevents discrimination against a protected characteristic by comparing 2 people who are matched apart from the characteristic in question. So a man with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment would be compared with a man without the characteristic of gender reassignment - not with a woman.

The GRA muddies the waters by creating a fictional 'legal sex', so it can be argued that the relevant comparator for a man with a GRC would be a woman.

Backstreets · 21/05/2023 21:38

Why can't these complete and utter weirdos just hold and cuddle their baby.

Or really act like a woman and do something useful for mum.

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 21/05/2023 21:40

-EQ + EA

WarriorN · 21/05/2023 21:42

Helleofabore · 21/05/2023 09:43

I do want to continue to draw reader’s attention to this part of the study whether the male exclusively fed for six weeks.

”After three months of treatment, this increased to 227 grams of breast milk per day. Once the baby was born, she was able to exclusively breastfeed the infant for six weeks – during which time a paediatrician confirmed the baby was growing and developing normally and healthily.”

“Although significant, this is below the average of around 500 grams that a baby consumes by the time the it is 5 days old.”

Something is not adding up here.

The first 6 weeks is vitally important.

I was told by a lact consultant that during this time the breast tissue lays down specific types of cell - and will lay down more depending on demand. Hence various feeding frenzies during this time. it's a demand and supply process. The more the baby suckles, the more cells are laid down to sustain the bf journey longer term.

(I'm uncertain if subsequent babies benefit from that first round or not.)

So the male is actively interfering with this process for their own needs and desires. Selfish.

Fetish.

JellySaurus · 21/05/2023 21:46

MaybeDoctor · 21/05/2023 09:38

I am gender critical and have been horrified by the whole shift towards 'birthing people', 'pregnant person' and 'chestfeeding'. Talk about minimising the unique and special role of women!

However, the idea of men breastfeeding definitely isn't new and has always been technically possible (men have milk ducts although far less of them), although it is vanishingly rare. At university I had a very tedious summer job involving categorizing articles in medical journals and one day came across an article about induced lactation which gave a case study of a man lactating in order to feed a baby, although to a limited degree. I remember that I found it fascinating and read out paragraphs to the rest of the office! This was back in 1994 and the article would have been published around that time (as we categorized recent journals as they were printed), although I cannot for the life of me remember which journal.

Many years later I became a breastfeeding peer supporter and along the way learned about re-lactation, mostly via domperidone and pumping. Sadly this was quite a common query on the helpline as new mums often hadn't been given proper support in the early days, had given up and then wanted to get re-started a bit later down the line. This can also be done using a re-lactation device (basically a tiny tube leading from a formula milk supply - the tube can be taped to the side of the breast so that baby latches on, receives milk via the tube and the breast is simultaneously stimulated to produce its own milk).

Induced lactation is a much bigger thing in the USA due to the higher rates of newborn adoption and adoptive mothers then wanting to start breastfeeding. Also for surrogacy arrangements. It is the same process as relactation (domperidone, pumping and using a relactation device), but much harder work as the nursing mother hasn't given birth and had the hormonal changes that help to kickstart the milk supply.

So the idea of men feeding hasn't just come about via gender identity politics - it is already known although very, very rare - however if it is used as the main means of feeding a baby it raises significant ethical questions. The main issues seem to me to be the risks of drug transfer via the bloodstream and the interruption to the milk supply of the mother, if the baby is not feeding from her.

Certainly male lactation been around and isolated cases, unrelated to drugs, known about for many years. I remember reading about a man (an Australian, I think, possibly in Sri Lanka, or one of the countries further east) who accidentally induced lactation from one of his nipples, as a result of allowing his infant to comfort suckle while waiting for his wife to return home. It was a point of interest, of how amazing the human body is, of how fathers also nurture their infants. There was never any suggestion from the father that he could replace the mother.

The fact that something can be done does not mean it should be done.

All the research appears to be about the possibility of male lactation, not about the value of it or the effect on the baby.

waterlego · 21/05/2023 21:56

PomegranateOfPersephone · 20/05/2023 19:30

The thing which hits me hard here is the utter and complete undermining of the mother and of the mother-baby relationship. Where is the support and reassurance for her? The dad has set himself up in competition with her and is claiming to have been the one who kept their son alive in her place. A mother needs to be supported to grow in confidence in her role, her partner should be supporting and nurturing the mother-baby dyad not coming in between them!

Not to mention of course the fantasy of “my stored supply and whatever I was expressing”. Completely delusional. A mother with a retained placenta will usually still have considerably greater volume of colostrum than the volume of whatever substance a man is going to produce from his nipples through use of pharmaceuticals. Her mature milk coming in will likely be delayed, in all likelihood she will still have colostrum. And obviously the hospital was not going to let this baby starve, or get malnourished, or get kidney or liver problems, obviously, screened donor milk or formula would have been given to this baby. And Sandi would have been taken to theatre ASAP to get the retained placenta removed.

Show quote history

Absolutely- the narcissism. ‘A lot of it was left to me’. Centring himself (some men cannot bear the new mother and baby being the focus of everyone’s attention) and criticising the mother at the same time. It’s absolutely vile.

Forwarder · 21/05/2023 22:06

This was meant as a joke a few years ago

Meet The Fockers Breastfeeding

mmmmmm milkkk

https://youtu.be/4xoVutcfKNk

BCBird · 21/05/2023 22:10

The world is going mad . Wtf

ChildcarePanic · 21/05/2023 22:59

I tried so hard to get a galactogogue prescribed when my milk dried up after stupidly taking decongestants for a week and I was told a firm no. If I was a bloke however I may have had more luck...

ScrollingLeaves · 21/05/2023 23:53

Forwarder · Today 22:06
This was meant as a joke a few years ago

Thank you, that is very funny.

Meet The Fockers Breastfeeding

mmmmmm milkkk

https://youtu.be/4xoVutcfKNk

SinnerBoy · 22/05/2023 04:56

Forwarder · Yesterday 22:02

Read the comments on this.

Dear me. What a load of oddballs, especially the one who was upset by a woman commenting.

I wonder exactly who Marie-Claire Springham is?