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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Brighton NHS trust recommends drug-induced male breastfeeding in their maternity protocols

205 replies

zibzibara · 20/05/2023 08:58

https://www.bsuh.nhs.uk/maternity/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2021/01/MP005-Perinatal-Care-for-Trans-and-Non-Binary-People.pdf

This is part of their maternity protocols for perinatal care. In the Infant feeding section:

"5.5.7 Non-gestational parents may wish to participate in feeding their
infants using their own bodies. Cis women who have previously breastfed may have the most success in relactating. Trans women and cis women who have not been pregnant may also be able to induce lactation to some extent. Methods for inducing lactation include using galactagoues and physical stimulation. Alternatively, some families choose to use supplemental nursing systems with expressed milk or formula."

They cite this website in the reference list: http://www.milkjunkies.net/2013/05/trans-women-and-breastfeeding-personal.html

Notably they do not cite any source which has tested the composition of any such male secretions for safety and nutritional value.

https://www.bsuh.nhs.uk/maternity/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2021/01/MP005-Perinatal-Care-for-Trans-and-Non-Binary-People.pdf

OP posts:
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zibzibara · 20/05/2023 13:58

Potentially worse still, this protocol may be being used more widely in the NHS than just Brighton.

York and Scarborough Trust reference it in their Board of Directors Meeting minutes from April 2023: https://www.yorkhospitals.nhs.uk/seecmsfile/?id=7152

"The Perinatal care for trans and non-binary people maternity guideline has been adapted with permissions from Brighton and East Sussex for use within the LMNS by the Transformation Lead Midwife and Equity and Equality lead at the LMNS and is currently being reviewed within the governance process. Work is ongoing to co-produce a patient information leaflet and embed the new guideline across the LMNS."
(Section 6, page 138)

Though it doesn't give any more details than that, so it's unclear if they're adopting the guidelines on feeding infants with male nipple discharge.

https://www.yorkhospitals.nhs.uk/seecmsfile?id=7152

OP posts:
JellySaurus · 20/05/2023 14:03

endofthelinefinally · 20/05/2023 13:15

"This person claims that the fluid they produced from their breasts was lifesaving for their infant, because the infant's mother was struggling to breastfeed due to retained placenta".

That statement makes absolutely no sense at all. Complete made up nonsense.

Have you read the article I linked?

'A day and a half after she came home, Sandi was still trying to breastfeed. A lot of it was left to me going through my stored supply and whatever I was expressing.'
While at home Ms Honnery-Buckley suffered severe abdominal pain and an elevated heart rate. An ambulance took her to hospital and it was discovered she had retained placenta products, which meant she was not producing milk.
'Apart from the milk he was getting from me he was essentially starving,' Ms Buckley said of the couple's hungry son.
'I genuinely believe had I not brought my breast milk into the hospital he could have become very sick with liver and kidney issues from lack of nutrition.'

endofthelinefinally · 20/05/2023 14:12

JellySaurus · 20/05/2023 14:03

Have you read the article I linked?

'A day and a half after she came home, Sandi was still trying to breastfeed. A lot of it was left to me going through my stored supply and whatever I was expressing.'
While at home Ms Honnery-Buckley suffered severe abdominal pain and an elevated heart rate. An ambulance took her to hospital and it was discovered she had retained placenta products, which meant she was not producing milk.
'Apart from the milk he was getting from me he was essentially starving,' Ms Buckley said of the couple's hungry son.
'I genuinely believe had I not brought my breast milk into the hospital he could have become very sick with liver and kidney issues from lack of nutrition.'

I am not saying you have made it up!
I am saying that drug induced secretions produced by a man are not IMO life saving. The man claiming his secretions are life saving is deluded.
Who knows whether those secretions are safe to give a baby that is not getting any other supply of milk.

neilyoungismyhero · 20/05/2023 14:15

This genuinely makes me want to vomit.

RoseslnTheHospital · 20/05/2023 14:23

I don't see why logically, if transwomen are being encouraged or supported to attempt to directly feed a baby with their secretions, that other men could do it too. With NHS Brighton's full support. Surely it's discriminatory for them not to?? Never mind about the baby of course. That's not the important thing here, male validation is!

This endocrinologist who has apparently done this with 5 male people. Where's the research paper? The peer reviewing? The examination of methodology and risk? The evidence that it is in the best interest of the baby, which is what must take priority given the baby is the most vulnerable person in this scenario?

Frankly I just don't believe it, unless there is direct evidence that it is possible, that any liquid produced is adequate and that volume is sufficient to actually be of any use.

I've had to start off breastfeeding twice by exclusively expressing due to poorly babies. It's hard hard work, and that's with a body that's producing the right cascade of hormones and with the ability to respond correctly to the expressing regime.

Treaclemine · 20/05/2023 14:23

I occurs to me that there is a case for the baby to be taken into care because its future care may not be appropriate because of the parents' completely batshit ideas. Wasn't there a case of a child fed a poor vegan diet (as opposed to a good nutritional vegan diet)?

TheShellBeach · 20/05/2023 14:38

What the duck is a "Transformation Lead Midwife"?
As a former community midwife, I think the health boards need to ensure there are sufficient midwives for women in labour and afterwards.
Not be appointing people to made-up bollocks roles.

TheShellBeach · 20/05/2023 14:40

That should say What The Fuck, not duck.
Stupid swiping refuses to write swear words.

Helleofabore · 20/05/2023 14:52

endofthelinefinally · 20/05/2023 14:12

I am not saying you have made it up!
I am saying that drug induced secretions produced by a man are not IMO life saving. The man claiming his secretions are life saving is deluded.
Who knows whether those secretions are safe to give a baby that is not getting any other supply of milk.

Yes.

’Life saving’. No way, get to fuck with that! There was most likely formula as an option for this emergency use.

This really was this male ‘rescuing’ the infant from an emergency of the couple’s own making. There would have been alternatives, they chose not to use them and to put their child in danger.

I doubt a male body produces colostrum. Yet someone allowed this male to believe what they produced was just that!

JellySaurus · 20/05/2023 14:52

Sorry, endofthelinefinally.

Everything about this men's rights ideology-driven behaviour makes absolutely no sense at all. All the justifications for it are completely made up nonsense.

TheShellBeach · 20/05/2023 14:55

Helleofabore · 20/05/2023 14:52

Yes.

’Life saving’. No way, get to fuck with that! There was most likely formula as an option for this emergency use.

This really was this male ‘rescuing’ the infant from an emergency of the couple’s own making. There would have been alternatives, they chose not to use them and to put their child in danger.

I doubt a male body produces colostrum. Yet someone allowed this male to believe what they produced was just that!

Coliseum is produced in response to pregnancy, so..............

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 20/05/2023 14:55

When I was struggling to breastfeed (admittedly back in the 90s), I asked if there were any drugs that would boost my supply and was told I couldn’t take anything.

But now biological men can get whatever they want, so they can lactate and feed their babies, with no thought as to any effects of those drugs on the babies? Bloody typical.

endofthelinefinally · 20/05/2023 14:55

No need to apologise jellysaurus. My post was badly worded.
I am becoming incoherent with all this fetishistic claptrap.

ArabeIIaScott · 20/05/2023 15:10

I remember worrying about eating too many cruciferous vegetables while breastfeeding, ffs.

To every woman who has struggled to establish or maintain breastfeeding and failed to get the support the NHS really ought to be providing to all mothers who need it - I'm so bloody sorry.

KalimbaMoon · 20/05/2023 15:18

Drug-induced male breastfeeding. Just no. No. No. No. Health professionals need to stand up and be the grown-ups in the room and not encourage this craziness.

Enabling and encouraging TW to breastfeed is NOT best for baby. The baby’s health and safety should trump everything. Babies are not there to validate anyone. They are helpless and innocent and they trust us to do the right thing by them. The early breast milk they receive is very important to their health and immune system, and it comes naturally from WOMEN. The original ones, because biology is a terf.

There are some things women can do that men cannot. Men need to learn to live with that and stop making everything about them. By all means, be trans and be happy. But understand that you cannot do all the things a biological woman can do. I actually think it’s sick to try.

BelindaBears · 20/05/2023 15:20

You can’t even get help from your health visitor about how to safely prepare formula but the NHS is a-ok with untested, drug induced fluids secreted from male nipples now?

W0tnow · 20/05/2023 15:21

Behold, your tax dollars at work.

JulesJules · 20/05/2023 15:35

turbonerd · 20/05/2023 09:20

But the «milk» produced by a TW is like fucking Toxic Waste (not my fault the acronyms are the same here!).

Like others have pointed out: the flak a woman gets for taking paracetamol or a thimbleful of cider whilst breastfeeding out of concern for the baby.
All of a sudden that concern is just violently flung to the wind so that a man can … jesus.

I got the rage just now.

Absolutely this. JFC

Codlingmoths · 20/05/2023 15:38

For a different take, I definitely read at least one study saying men lactating is nutritionally the same as women’s breastmilk when I was reading up on breastmilk a few years ago. It felt like a serious analysis; I’m not an expert in this but do have a science background. I don’t have it to hand now but it can’t have been too hard to find. Im in oz so I'm headed to bed now but I’ve been around a while and am perfectly genuine. So I can’t join the crowd calling it secretions and other stuff. Nor do I think there is too much scope for rage that it quite probably doesn’t respond to a baby the way the mothers milk does, since many women happily use donor milk which would also not react to the baby.
The paramount question is of course the benefit to the baby; I’d think the mothers milk is of the most benefit, and if a man is taking any kind of medication that is not proven safe for breastfeeding no professional should ethically say anything but that it’s a terrible idea.
and personally nobody else is ever breastfeeding my babies that’s for sure!

MrsOvertonsWindow · 20/05/2023 15:41

Given the appalling state of maternity care in this country, the idea that any NHS staff are allowed to waste time on enabling the demands of this male fetish is a disgrace. Stop harming women and babies, provide safe maternity care for all women and babies and then turn your attention to the demands of the narcissists.

Helleofabore · 20/05/2023 16:28

Codlingmoths · 20/05/2023 15:38

For a different take, I definitely read at least one study saying men lactating is nutritionally the same as women’s breastmilk when I was reading up on breastmilk a few years ago. It felt like a serious analysis; I’m not an expert in this but do have a science background. I don’t have it to hand now but it can’t have been too hard to find. Im in oz so I'm headed to bed now but I’ve been around a while and am perfectly genuine. So I can’t join the crowd calling it secretions and other stuff. Nor do I think there is too much scope for rage that it quite probably doesn’t respond to a baby the way the mothers milk does, since many women happily use donor milk which would also not react to the baby.
The paramount question is of course the benefit to the baby; I’d think the mothers milk is of the most benefit, and if a man is taking any kind of medication that is not proven safe for breastfeeding no professional should ethically say anything but that it’s a terrible idea.
and personally nobody else is ever breastfeeding my babies that’s for sure!

The article you talk about did not cover anything but the ‘nutritional’ value. I have read it.

It didn’t test for drug interaction or what drugs crossed over to the infant. It did NOT test for testosterone for instance.

So, by all means you can take that at face value. I choose not to. Because until that analysis is done, ‘nutritional’ value is pointless if you are secreting chemicals that have never been tested for safety in infants. I am very comfortable calling this substance a secretion.

Plus, all tests show that no male breast has yet made enough milk to sustain an infant past the first weeks. No matter how much drug they take or how much they pump. They simply cannot according to the recorded evidence. And amongst the links I posted , a transitioned male, Associate Professor, Family Community Medicine, is telling the world that this is not advisable until further research.

Deutsch, an expert in family medicine, would not do this for their child when the opportunity arose. Because Deutsch did not want to cause any harm to their child.

Why would you substitute the richness of the first milk formulas especially designed for first weeks, for the secretions of a male nipple?

A mother’s milk will be suitable because of the female reproductive system has made the modifications needed for each stage of that infant’s life. A male body cannot do this at all. And a donor milk supply will be matched to the child’s age. It is not just about ‘donor’ milk.

A growing infant has tiny amounts of milk at the start, why would any person feel it is acceptable for this substance to take the place of that first milk? A substance found be lacking in the nutrition needed for that child to develop properly from the first instance?

MightyEagle · 20/05/2023 16:47

Apologies I haven't RTFT. Genuine question: has anyone analysed this liquid to check it even IS milk?

JellySaurus · 20/05/2023 16:48

turbonerd · 20/05/2023 09:20

But the «milk» produced by a TW is like fucking Toxic Waste (not my fault the acronyms are the same here!).

Like others have pointed out: the flak a woman gets for taking paracetamol or a thimbleful of cider whilst breastfeeding out of concern for the baby.
All of a sudden that concern is just violently flung to the wind so that a man can … jesus.

I got the rage just now.

Not just that, but lactating mothers struggling with their supply are slammed for taking galactogenic supplements (such as fenugreek) or medications (such as domperidone, which is given to babies for reflux) to boost their supply.

Who knew it was so simple - just be a man, with a male endocrine system damaged by anti-androgenic drugs and cross-sex hormones. Because then taking galactogenic drugs will be fine for the baby.

PatatiPatatras · 20/05/2023 16:50

I honestly think they meant transmen given the "who haven't been pregnant before" but the language muddle means there's something missing in translation 🙄 . Oh dear who'd have thought definitions could have avoided this.

Igmum · 20/05/2023 17:07

WTAF?? I gave up COFFEE! I didn't drink. Don't they care about the actual baby?