How did people start to believe in this trans stuff?

[IsThereAnEchoInHere]

I’m talking about the ’allys’, the one’s who believe in all this?
How did it make sense to them that women have penis’ now, that transwomen can compete with women, that men who were so oppressive yesterday can today be the most oppressed transwomen?

How did they get to that point?
How did it make sense to them?

To be complitely honest, I tried/ am trying to ’be nice’ and understand, but the more I read (from trans people, allys) the less it makes sense.
I wanted to understand, but my brain won’t let me.

James Barry was a woman who wanted to be a doctor at a time when that was a profession not open to women. There may have been other reasons for Barry's life choices as well, but surely we can all see that there were strong incentives for women to cross-dress to get freedoms and opportunities denied to them otherwise?

some will feel absolutely male

You mean they feel like they have a penis? Or you mean they feel they have a certain type of personality that you think can only occur in male-bodied people?

You seem to be mixing up sex and gender, despite being very clear earlier that your physical sex has zero to do with your gender-feeling. This is where I get confused. You say that female and woman are entirely separate characteristics - let's say, like your eye colour and your music taste - yet now you're saying you can "feel" your eye colour as much as you can feel your musical taste.

Surely there is far more evidence at your fingertips than this though! It's an admission of failure to just fall back on "educate yourself"

The thing is, that one of the biggest contradictions in gender ideology is exactly right here on the thread. And it goes like this:

If being a woman “goes beyond the physical”, then what ARE these idealist womanly characteristics? Because they can’t actually be things like “less spatial awareness” (disproved), “better at multitasking” (disproved), “bad drivers” (disproved - and most of all by car insurers, so you really know it isn’t true). And it doesn’t make sense to say “loves fashion!” or similar: in plenty of eras men have loved fashion just as much as or more than women, and dress isn’t part of one’s internal soul - that makes no sense. And it doesn’t work to say “loves music and art!” or “likes cooking!” - because actually all the famous artists, composers and chefs are pretty much men, and there’s been much argument over centuries about how women’s efforts in these arenas are dilettantish, inexperienced and just less good. So clearly none of these things are evidence of innate womanly predispositions.

In the end, these nebulous womanlinesses always come down to things like “nurturing” and “good with people” and “loves children”. Which are exactly the very attributes that derive from women’s biological roles. Alternatively, gender ideologues of a specifically unpleasant type sometimes point to aspects of “being womanly” that actually derive from women’s physical role in acts of sex - eg. being penetrated, being “submissive”, desire to be a “bottom” and so on (pace Andrea Long Chu et al.)

So in every discussion about this, the gender ideologist who earnestly wants to divorce womanhood from “biological essentialism” eventually ends up “proving” the gendered nature of the soul by reference to the very attributes and social roles that women have by virtue of their biological sex.

Because what else can you point to as essentially womanly if it isn’t kids or penetration? A desire to do crafts and go shopping? No — we end up at the circular argument every time. Womanliness goes beyond sex but somehow actually is only stereotypes, nurturing, and/or and liking to be submissive when fucked. That’s it. Never seen a TRA come up with anything else that this mysterious womanhood supposedly consists of.

@SunnyEgg because trans people aren't saying they're children- that isn't the argument so I think it's best that we avoid hypothetical issues rather than what is actually happening.

I think it comes back to being able to differentiate between certain issues and problems within a movement especially where it overlaps with the lived experiences of others. I can accept that someone is trans and has a particular gender identity while also understanding that they haven't had the same lived experience I have and may have been afforded certain privilege for parts of their life that they might not even be aware of. These privileges can be problematic but it doesn't deny the person's complete experience. Imo anyway.

People do sometimes have it about their bodies - for example people who have limbs removed because they feel "wrong".

I don't think people want or need to make sense of it as such. I think people want to be respectful of others, and if someone is saying they are a woman many people are choosing to respect that. It's very hard to imagine how someone who is transgender must feel (for me anyway), so who has the right to tell them how they feel is not true or correct?

Also lots of younger people especially will know (of) someone trans, and when it's personal it's very different. You see that individual as a human and quite possibly know the struggle they have gone through and how it impacted them. It increases acceptance. That's why for example the least racist towns in the country are those with the most racial diversity.

Regarding the penis, one could argue that the penis does not maketh the man. A man could lose a penis in a terrible accident and still be a man. Ergo, if penis does not equal man, then penis does not NOT equal woman.

Now competitive sports, this is a very tricky one IMO but I have seen various studies or medical information / Dr quotes etc that suggest in some cases there is no natural obvious inherent advantage for over sex over another etc. There are also examples of eg intersex sportspeople who've been categorised one way or another and subsequently had a tough time. Finally, there's also the argument it's harmful for trans people to be excluded from sports as it "others" them.

Interestingly, I'd say half of my friends are allies and the other half are very much not. Personally, I can understand parts of both sides of the issue, but mostly I empathise with the vast majority of trans people who just want to get on and live their lives without them being dissected.

This 100% how can women respect people that feel this way towards women and children.

Sorry to repost this but I'm really interested. "Woman" as a gender bears zero relation to anything physical to do with the body. Fine. So why is anyone changing their body because of their gender? The two are entirely unrelated.

Why is gender more important over physical reality & strength differences though?

Like, why does no one ever answer that part???

As someone who's always trying to see both sides because I constantly feel like I'm missing something obvious as so many go along with this stuff, it's extremely frustrating to see this question ignored over and over, no matter the thread or context it's presented in :/

It’s not but I assume you find it unsavoury. Is that due to safeguarding - and if so are women and girls allowed to ask for safeguarding / dignity and privacy?

I’m not sure I totally get your response though, do you think males should have access to female spaces, are there any situations where that might not be ok?

I think some of it is 'be kind' and some is complete ignorance of biology.

There's a whole load of internalised misogyny too.

My adult and teen dc can’t understand why James/David/Liam can’t put on a dress/wig/makeup and still be known by the names they were given at birth. Neither can I tbh. Putting on a dress doesn’t, and will never, make a man a woman.

Why can’t everyone dress as they want to, keep their natural identity and stop with the nonsense that they can be anything other than themselves?

When Martin puts on a dress he is still Martin. An item of clothing will not make Martin magically transform into Martha.

Martin will always have the body and hormones of a man. Martin has no wish to remove his penis or testosterone. Martin is a man. He knows he’s a man. Who are the people who demand everyone sees Martin as a woman? Deluded much! 🙄

Gender ideology has been very cleverly marketed as the next big Civil Rights movement - listen to Megan Murphy’s podcast - Feminist Current. Her latest episode discussed men in women's prisons and she talks about the civil rights comparison. We are told - by powerful, wealthy men generally eg “Jennifer” Pritzker https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jennifer_Pritzker that trans people are the most vulnerable, most marginalised, practically being eradicated before our very eyes.
So the ‘be kind’ mantra that is another clever publicity ploy sucks in people who for some reason believe the guff they're being sold. The marketing is straight from the ultimate salesman’s manual of how to manipulate gullible people.
The reading of ‘Trans’ by Helen Joyce opened my eyes.
Just type trans into Google and see what comes up - whilst doing so, remember that the ranking of websites in Google is governed by how much those businesses are willing to pay.

I mean, not to split hair's here, but there are some people identifying as both trans, and as children.

Whether you consider them as falling under the trans umbrella or something else is up to personal discretion I suppose.

One day men will be able to procreate with themselves and women will become obsolete.

Yep, no probs 👍👍 I didn't feel accused.
More so, I just wanted to clarify that I was happy use preferred pronouns (except where I am choosing not to show respect e.g. the context warrants biological sex pronouns) but I realised when I saw your post pop up that my "allyship" was a little ambiguous on this point. So a general clarification rather than a defensive bite. Easy to misinterpret though - a big downside of online forums!

because trans people aren't saying they're children- that isn't the argument so I think it's best that we avoid hypothetical issues rather than what is actually happening.

Clearly you have not heard of StepOnKnee then, an adult male, a trans person who identifies as a six year old girl child and thought to be so important they actually spoke to the Canadian Government and are considered instrumental in the drawing up of Canada's policies regarding trans.

Oh and StephOnKnee fully dressed as a girl child enjoys being fucked up the arse by their 'stepfather' in their new set up and makes no bones about publicising this fact all over the internet.

I can accept that someone is trans and has a particular gender identity while also understanding that they haven't had the same lived experience. You'd apply this to StephOnKnee @Ilovetea42 ?

Because they don't really know what it means.
Because they are scared of wrong think.
Because they think twaw is not actually literal.
If they do believe it Because they do believe in biological essentialism and that only women can be submissive or caring.
Because they don't understand that the ideology is actually harmful and unkind and think they are helping.

This website is an echo chamber for unhappy women who want a scapegoat for their feelings, such as trans people. They don’t represent the majority of society.

And here you are sounding pretty miserable.

This is a women’s rights issue because it affects us. I know you don’t see that but going on the attack won’t help.

Have you read the cass report? Do you know what medical transition means and how unsuccessful it is? As you aware of how many lifelong issues and disabilities people may face? Have you seen Caitlin Jenner and Debbie Hayton's take on the medicalisation of children, both post op tw?

Who are both gc I should say not gi!

10-15 years ago a lot of people started to feel terribly guilty about how homophobic they used to be and after that decided to blindly support anything with a rainbow flag attached.

This website is an echo chamber for unhappy women who want a scapegoat for their feelings, such as trans people. They don’t represent the majority of society.

Poll after poll, a recent one in the USA say clearly you are wrong, the majority of the public do not buy into Gender Ideology.

It's a load of bollocks. Men cannot shove make-up and a dress on and be a woman. They all look like men anyway. Not one passes as a woman. They look ridiculous.