How did people start to believe in this trans stuff?

[IsThereAnEchoInHere]

I’m talking about the ’allys’, the one’s who believe in all this?
How did it make sense to them that women have penis’ now, that transwomen can compete with women, that men who were so oppressive yesterday can today be the most oppressed transwomen?

How did they get to that point?
How did it make sense to them?

To be complitely honest, I tried/ am trying to ’be nice’ and understand, but the more I read (from trans people, allys) the less it makes sense.
I wanted to understand, but my brain won’t let me.

Going back to the OP's question (good point RoyalCorgi), I'm an "ally" in so far as I will support someone's gender identity belief by respecting their right to live without discrimination. This also includes respecting their request for preferred pronouns.

Where I draw the line on both my support (and respect) is if (when) their belief directly impacts someone who does not hold the same belief. I'm exactly the same about religion. This is also a "when", not if e.g. the restrictions placed on women's clothing in Islam, or abortion in some Christian territories.

@CremeEggQueen and @Ilovetea42 it's good to hear some voices here that share the gender identity belief perspective. Can I ask your thoughts on medicalising children (who make a decision, sometimes in their early adolescence or earlier), who may change their minds later. From the early days of the Tavistock clinic, it was expected that 80% of gender incongruous children would "desist" over time with no intervention or agreement regarding their gender identity. I'm genuinely interested in your views on this. Do you support it e.g. is it an "all in" thing (like some religions) or is this something that would concern you, even though you have a belief in gender identity?

For all those 'cis' allies out there. No matter what you do it won't be enough. You need to watch the video of this trans person and what they think of your allyship.

Always knew they'd come for you after us.

https://twitter.com/hatpinwoman/status/1656671851547066372?s=19

The power of prayer.

Identities used to be things /that were true about you/ that were important to you and you made central to your life. When did the identities start to exist in isolation from the reality?

Just to clarify on this, in respect of my comment above, I have never and nor would I ever refer to myself as "cis".

This is a useful post but I think your last paragraph is unfair. Most of the terfy older women's social circles only exist because women found each other after being ostracised from previous social circles.

Many, many older women would not have lost their friends, reputations or jobs if they had 'just kept quiet'. Many kept quiet for years until the cost of that was too much.

My 20 something sons have discussed this with me.

I've come to the conclusion that it's their generations big issue. They don't really understand why or how but they like having their generations thing that proves that they are more progressive than every other generation before them.

They just blink confusion at me when I mention my friend, the dad of kids their age whose art work they have grown up with on our walls when I say what about M?

No answer.

It's a thing to get righteous about, and every generation wants their own!

I believe that womanhood goes beyond just the physical

Sorry @Ilovetea42 i didn't thank you for replying so, thanks. Would you say you believe in "blue brains" and "pink brains" - that there are certain characteristics hardwired into each sex, and if your brain isn't like the template for your sex, that you are "not really" your sex, or are e.g. "less of" a male.

If so, would there be any evidence that would change your mind (for example, if given certain tasks, scientists were unable to reliably tell from brain scans whether the person was male or female), or is this something where you would believe it regardless of any evidence? How would/ have you measured the things you believe are inherently male or female, and how would you account for socialisation?

The first two examples that jump off my head are James Barry who was only discovered to be a trans male upon autopsy. He was born in Cork and lived in England. Coccinelle in France was another prominent figure. There's plenty of others including plenty of non indigenous American figures as well. I'd suggest you have a Google you'll find plenty of examples.

We know we can't do any of that so isn't that just more rhetoric?

The first two examples that jump off my head are James Barry who was only discovered to be a trans male upon autopsy

You said that gender has nothing to do with body. What did the autopsy find?

"Yes that would be my take on it. I believe that womanhood goes beyond just the physical. I understand that others disagree on that and I accept that's their stance but that's where I personally land."
@Ilovetea42

But why does the concept of womanhood as a gender then take precedent over physical reality and the differences between the biological sexes?

Being trans, trans surgeries, trans hormones, they don't magically make your skeletal structure change, nor does it change the fact that they will have physical strength advantages to biological women.

Even in just a loose example of a drunken fight in a nightclub loo, sexes matter. Males bodies are capable of doing far more damage to female bodies than vice versa.

It’s odd women have been asked to step aside and revere feelings of men who want to change their identity

Would people be more upset if adult males felt they were female children

With their whole heart and lived experience etc

Why do pp ask it of women but presumably not of children to accept males in their spaces?

You are having to dredge up all the ancient cases there to prove this aren't you @Ilovetea42

It's not the slam dunk you were talking about earlier!

Google it apparently! If Google is your oracle you are a bit lost perhaps?

And this is why people say go Google, - if you really wanted to learn more, you would by yourself instead of being spoon fed links or cases to you that you can just poo poo or ignore.

I think the idea of pink and blue brains is over simplyfing it for me a bit but i guess I'm seeing it more as a sliding scale where people will fall somewhere along that scale within themselves and some will feel absolutely male and that will match biological sex and some will feel differently and it won't match. I'm not convinced that we're far enough along that I would say with any certainty that this could be 100% captured by brain scan no. I would say that listening to people and trying to understand their experiences is the deciding factor for me. I think if enough people over a prolonged period of time are reporting a specific experience and when I've first hand seen the distress and then relief that transition can offer people then for me personally that's enough. I understand some others may need more than that, but for me I feel satisfied to accept that person's lived reality. I don't think they will have exactly the same life experience that I have but I also don't think any two people have exactly the same life experience.

I often think back to when Nadia won Big Brother many years ago. Bizarrely, I didn't really have an issue calling Nadia 'she' at the time but I suppose I saw Nadia as a 'one off'. Nobody really thought much about it, from what I remember. I don't understand how it has all exploded the way it has.

ilovetea believes that woman is a feeling (put very broadly!) and nothing to do with the physical body. So you can be a woman because of the "feeling" you have.

I do not understand why physical sex is any part of it, in that case. Again, if you ate male with "woman" gender-feeling, why try to make your body look female if female has nothing whatsoever to do with being a woman? What does it achieve? It would be like me wearing a nurse's outfit to indicate that I have a Sagittarius personality. I don't see the logic. Happy for anyone to explain.

Just suggested you do your own research Hepwo as I've done mine. It's not my job to educate you through mumsnet any more than its yours to educate me. You may do your own research and come to a different conclusion as is your choice. I've done mine and come to my conclusion. I purposely chose older examples in order to demonstrate my earlier point that trans is not a new fad.

It's because we have learnt more that we can laugh at the Google reference.

So go find your own sources then, instead of expecting everyone else to spoon feed yoy

you

Mmm

You have to do a bit better than that here.

I work in CAMHS and it truly terrifies me the number of parents who are so accepting g of their under 16 wish to change sex Many are paying privately for hormones from private clinics.
Goes without saying about 95% of these kids are either trauma victims or ASD.
I despair at these parents who are to frightened of upsetting their children by saying no.

I want accusing anyone It's what they were called in the video.