How did people start to believe in this trans stuff?

[IsThereAnEchoInHere]

I’m talking about the ’allys’, the one’s who believe in all this?
How did it make sense to them that women have penis’ now, that transwomen can compete with women, that men who were so oppressive yesterday can today be the most oppressed transwomen?

How did they get to that point?
How did it make sense to them?

To be complitely honest, I tried/ am trying to ’be nice’ and understand, but the more I read (from trans people, allys) the less it makes sense.
I wanted to understand, but my brain won’t let me.

I mean, trans and non binary people have existed since the beginning of time. This isn't a 'new' concept although it's getting much more attention recently. Many non Christian based religion's and cultures have always recognised a third gender and historically these people often fulfilled significant roles in society which was one of the reasons why when Christianity was being spread, these people were targeted as a threat in the same way that certain festivals and key dates were usurped by Christian traditions. An example of this is the acceptance of two spirit people in indigenous american culture which was challenged in the name of Christianity through enforced residential schools. We know that lgbt history has been erased because the majority of history has been recorded through a heteronormative lens. There are many, many examples of trans and non binary figures throughout history. I can accept it because its not a new trending fad. Trans people have always been around and will always continue to be around.

How does that make it plausible that humans can be born in the wrong body or change sex, @Ilovetea42 ?

Thanks VitaminX An interesting post.

Ilovetea42 do you think it's possible to change sex? If so, why?

Be kind. i never believed thats transwomen were women but I thought I was being kind by saying “ah its fine let em pee”. Having said that you would never have caught me saying TWAW because that’s clearly not true. I doubt anyone actually believes it.

Utter rubbish.

For me it's a proven human experience that some people do not identify with the biological sex they are born with. Its proven by the vast numbers of people throughout history who have lived this experience. I mean there's examples of gender reassignment surgery going back as far as biblical times. I don't need to personally feel what someone else is feeling to be able to accept that is something that is real and happening for them and support them in that. Just in the same way as a straight woman who is attracted to men, I don't need to find women attractive to know accept and support that there are other women who are not straight and who find other women attractive. That isn't something tangible either, which is why lgb activists had such a difficult fight against those who didn't understand and were happy to label it mental illness or kink or depravity. That battle was hard fought and I think there is a huge overlap between the rhetoric used against lgb people back then and what's been used against trans/non binary people now. We need to remember that religion etc has had a massive role in deciding what we hear and accept even now because our history is so filtered.

Care to elaborate on that @Badgeringabout or are you not actually here for the discussion part of this discussion??

successful sex reassignment surgery from Biblical times - evidence? I mean SRS is a very complicated on going medical
procedure

i love to see how people were accomplishing that with basic knifes, no disinfectant and no anaesthetic

and for avoidance of doubt just in case it hoves into view - the forced castration of male slaves is not SRS

@Ilovetea42 , what I asked was why you think people can change sex.

Women fought for years for equal rights, for the vote, for women’s toilets, to be in the Olympics, then men come along and want to dress as women and take these things from women and be part of these things. Women’s rights is not a thing anymore as these ‘men’ have destroyed that!

What's to prove its not plausible? For me I think part of the hesitance around accepting particularly that twaw (because let's be honest this debate usually centers on trans women and not trans men) is because women are protective of the female experience and the specific challenges women face as a result of being a woman. I do think there's education on that for anyone who is transitioning so they can be aware and informed on that because if originally raised male with the privilege that affords, then of course there's going to be a slight difference in lived experience. But similarly I don't have the lived experience of being trans so I have to accept that's a different human experience that someone else is having. I don't think that anyone can categorically yea or nea someone else's lived experience and since it's not something tangible because it veers into the grey area of where does your mind/awareness/identity and physical body meet then I don't think anyone can categorically deny it.

Great post, I agree with this
I've recently found out about two spirit in indigenous American culture and as a result been trying to read up a bit more on the history, and the enforced residential schools.

There was absolutely forced castration which I'm not referring to at all, that's in no way the same and i would never suggest it was. However similar techniques were used by choice. There are examples of people of high social status who were castrated and chose to live non binary lives who were definitely not slaves.

Haven't we all heard that famous Indigenous American expression, Two Spirits are Women?

Maybe in the past people also thought that they needed to alter their body I'm order to conform to sex stereotypes of the opposite sex, but it was wrong then and its wrong now.
Wearing clothes usually worn by the opposite sex, yeah fair enough, go for it! But it doesn't mean that you actually become the opposite sex, therefore you should use the facilities for your birth sex 🤷‍♀️

As a lefty, liberal LGB-embracing person, I started off - as the default - unquestioningly accepting the idea of people identifying as trans.

I understood that their gender identity was different from their sex. And I understood that they had decided to identify as the opposite gender.

I was more than happy to accept that they had changed (trans) gender - easy enough to do, since gender is an intangible thing, and all it involves is utilising a set of easily adopted stereotypes.

Never once did I believe you could change sex.

Hello: that’s why it’s called transgender!

This was - I honestly don’t know - it feels like years ago now, I suppose maybe around 2015, 2016?

I’m not in the UK and where I am, the issue just had not arisen at all. But purely because of the time I spent here, on Mumsnet, the scales quickly began to fall from my eyes.

I realised that trans people weren’t asking for equal and/or human rights. They were demanding that I budge up and hand over my rights. They were demanding that I deny science and basic biology. Of course you can change your (non-existent) gender. 🤷🏻‍♀️ But you cannot change your sex. Every human on earth knows that.

It was then that I realised that the entire movement centres male-bodied people (otherwise known as ‘men’), and that it centres male-bodied people who behave in profoundly gender normative ways. Transmen are a complete bi-product for whom the movement doesn’t give a shit.

It’s all about the men.

Transactivism is deeply misogynistic and homophobic (the impact it has had on lesbians, in particular, is insidious), and with each passing day, I get angrier and angrier about it.

Trans people are now complaining about increased anti-trans rhetoric, while not for a second reflecting and acknowledging that any negative rhetoric coming their way is a result of their own actions.

Their demands.

Their insistence on invading women’s single sex spaces, their violent actions, their rhetoric against women.

And I haven’t even started on the lifelong damage being inflicted on children in the name of transactivism, which will come home to roost.

I can’t understand how any thinking person goes along with the lies, the misogyny, the homophobia, the gas-lighting, and the damage - people’s bodies being mutilated, sexual function being ruined and fertility being removed.

How can anyone supporting all of the above ^^ think this is the ‘right’ side of history

This is one of the classic trans rewrites of history isn't it?

A response from tribal communities about the appropriation of "two spirit" by non-native white people: https://www.conspireforchange.org/a-letter-to-white-people-using-the-term-two-spirit/

As I see it, men who identify as women are like white people identifying as black. I don't think the oppressors get to identify as the oppressed in order to validate something that is no more than an inner feeling without any relation to biological reality. I don't care how anybody chooses to present themselves or what they choose to be called, but the rights of women to services specifically designed for them should not be open to people who were brought up and socialised as men and inhabit male bodies.

That battle was hard fought and I think there is a huge overlap between the rhetoric used against lgb people back then and what's been used against trans/non binary people now

Rhetoric?

Is the need for single sex services rhetoric or an actual need?

How can single sex be "rhetoric"?

I would like to see what you have to say about this?

You’re conflating ‘gender’ and ‘sex’.

Of course you can change your gender - gender doesn’t exist. It’s an intangible thing that manifests as a set of often harmful, regressive, sexist stereotypes.

You can’t change sex.

Even you know and admit that, @Ilovetea42 😉

@Ilovetea42 when I first became aware of the belief that twaw I saw a lot of comments on twitter talking about other cultures being accepting of trans, now and historically, and commonly cultures in the southern hemisphere were cited for example Maori. These cultures were shown as evidence for accepting twaw and that rejection of this was cultural, imperialistic, and not immutable.
I found I agreed with the part about other cultures currently and historically being more acceptable about trans, because these cultures did not say twaw, they had as one poster on twitter put it, 'at least 5 genders': men, women, transmen, transwomen and DSD. Which to me is perfectly acceptable.
The difference then is that developed countries have misinterpreted the way trans people have been viewed in these other cultures.

It’s a phase/fad/kink that has been linked to LGB in a very clever way!

Social media led to social contagion in the young, impressionable, neurodiverse non conformists. Meanwhile ex fetishists realised they could normalise their fantasy by pushing into the mainstream.

Next new, the oh so very tolerant are falling over themselves to virtue signal that they’re an allie handmaiden whilst selling those with genuine concerns/reality down the river! It will have all been overseen by some powerful white men somewhere 🤦‍♀️

This is a really clear explanation.

When my daughter told me she thought she was trans (and asked for puberty blockers to give her time to think - we looked in to the medical advice from the NHS and said no to this) I spoke to some fantastic LGBT+ to understand this whole world better.

This aligns with the view I was given. Initially I assumed I must have a "gendered soul" that did align to my biological sex. After a lot more listening, I realised I must be agnostic (I could never get to the nub of what someone meant when they said they "felt masculine" for example) and was unsure about whether I had a gendered soul or not.

Then I moved on to the equivalent of atheism i.e. I do not believe in gender identity. I do not believe that "gendered souls" exist. However, I'm well aware that I'm an atheist in terms of religion as well, and I accept that there are many people who believe in one or more gods. Therefore I can accept that there are people for whom a gender identity belief is important.

What I can't accept though is this belief leading to harm (e.g. adolescent autistic girls like my daughter - thankfully she is not currently on a pathway of medicalisation for life or sterilisation and I will do everything I can to help her build an acceptance her body without needing to change it at any point in her life) or unfairness (e.g. women's sports). Harm and unfairness relating to gender identity also come in plenty of other forms e.g. people being denied same sex intimate care, lesbians being coerced in to accepting "girldick", transwidows (and children of late transitioning transwomen) being gaslit and coerced, women and girls being at a statistically measurable increased safeguarding risk in women's toilets and changing rooms etc etc.

Once people have their eyes opened to this harm, unfairness and risk, there is no excuse for ignorance.

I still respect someone's preferred pronouns unless there is a reason not to (e.g clarity is important for context, or they are a young person at risk, like my daughter). But it doesn't mean I share a belief in their gender identity.