How did people start to believe in this trans stuff?

[IsThereAnEchoInHere]

I’m talking about the ’allys’, the one’s who believe in all this?
How did it make sense to them that women have penis’ now, that transwomen can compete with women, that men who were so oppressive yesterday can today be the most oppressed transwomen?

How did they get to that point?
How did it make sense to them?

To be complitely honest, I tried/ am trying to ’be nice’ and understand, but the more I read (from trans people, allys) the less it makes sense.
I wanted to understand, but my brain won’t let me.

This also coincides with Stonewall deciding to campaign for trans rights in about 2015, following the legalisation of gay marriage in 2014.

I honestly wasn't aware of it beyond the adult transsexuals until the last couple of years. I knew one of those maybe fifteen years ago, mtf of the old fashioned variety like Jan Morris. The daughter of somebody I know through my local arts community adopted a non-binary name a couple of years ago and now identifies as a boy. Completely separate from this I read Rowling's essay and shared it on my FB page because I thought it made sense, and was promptly slapped down with TWAW by people in that same arts community. This didn't make sense to me so I started reading up about it and discussing it online, since when I've gone full-blown TERF.

This is my thing, why do Transgender women have to be considered women. Why can they not live their life as similarly as possible to ‘real’ woman whilst understanding they can never actually be a woman.

Quite. The big question is, if you don't define men and women using sexual characteristics (i.e. transwomen are men and transmen are women), and you say that TWAW and TMAM, what on earth is the definition of men and women? There isn't one. There is absolutely nothing that transwomen and women have in common that men don't have as well, and nothing that transmen and men have in common that women don't have. If it's supposed about how you feel or think, well women don't all feel or think the same, do we? So would then be the definition of men and women? There isn't one.

I was thinking about this while reading the thread about the Parkrun transwoman prisoner who now holds a women's record. there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that I have in common with that person that I don't also have in common with other men, like two eyes, a brain, the ability to speak a language...

I would, for a change, love to see men urged to be kind.

Have you heard of chivalry? The dictionary definition is 'very polite, honest, and kind behaviour, especially by men towards women' and men of substance were expected to be chivalrous in bygone eras.

"Ladies first"
"Be a gentleman"
"Boys don't hit girls"
"A gentleman is someone who does not what he wants to do, but what he should do."
Etc

To me, a man, it looks a lot like misogyny.
Someone returning to normality after having suffered an addiction, mental health struggles or been very under- or overweight is often portrayed as a 'better' person than another who has lived a more mundane existence.
Those who have contributed nothing toward becoming a woman other than living in their birth sex and going through puberty cannot be as 'worthy' as someone who has battled their biology and society to make themselves a woman.
The option for a biological woman to be able to safely access penis-free environments seems a pretty fundamental right and I would expect someone with a 'female soul' to empathise with that position.

The option for a biological woman to be able to safely access penis-free environments seems a pretty fundamental right and I would expect someone with a 'female soul' to empathise with that position.

You’re right, but they never, ever do.

Transwomen tend to behave in profoundly gender normative ways, which does nothing more or less than prove that they are males/men.

Anyone want to buy a new watch?

Mansplained Those who have contributed nothing toward becoming a woman other than living in their birth sex and going through puberty cannot be as 'worthy' as someone who has battled their biology and society to make themselves a woman.

That's the thing that reminds of the American movement to protest 'stolen valor'. Being a military impostor is a crime. Being a female impostor is heroic and delightful and charming and unchallengable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Valor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Valor_Act_of_2005

I didn't 'bin' the book cover image because it made me consider whether we are being robbed of our history and our heroines.

Are you suggesting these are constructive messages in this day and age? I want to be regarded by men as a peer and equal, not a fragile lady who needs special treatment. I treat men (and everyone else) the way I would like to be treated, and hope they will do the same.

Everyone should be kind and courteous to everyone. No one should hit anyone, particularly not someone weaker than them, or vulnerable.

I spoke to trans people. I learned that it is more than just changing your appearance, and that they cannot control their feelings. I was also raised to never judge people, and I stand by that even with topics that at first may seem controversial or different. They're all human at the end of the day so they deserve the same resepct and love.

We spend our lives learning to control our feelings, especially the sexual ones.

Otherwise we would be children running around with our nappy on.

You should check out the general state of the 21st century fetish world on display in public online, where your "no judgement" might be stretched a little more than it has been so far.

@Anklespraying I don't particularly want to check out the online fetish world. I'm not talking about fetishisers, I'm talking about normal trans people trying to go about their daily lives without people criticising and examining them

I was also raised to never judge people,

You never judge people? I don't believe you.

We all learn to control our feelings as we grow and mature otherwise there would be chaos.

They do indeed. Everyone does. Including the women whose spaces some of them are invading.

Ah, I see it’s time for ‘trans people are just trying to live their lives 101’ again.

Oh, if this ^^ were true…. 🙏

I know this will sound intentionally insulting and I don't mean to offend but come on, you're an adult. At some point, you have to make a decision about what you think is right or wrong, and that involves making a judgement.

Just living their lives, fine, but when that impinges on others and negatively impacts others, results on others being excluded from spaces and services designed for them or self excluding, what then?

When it means wholesale changes to the language used for one demographic of people so they are no longer able to use that language as it was intended and are instead reduced to having dehumanising terms used for them, what then?

I also tend to be a person who is very slow to judge people as long as they're doing nothing illegal. It's not a judgement to say you're male if you're male, it's just a fact. Being male isn't a crime. It's not in my gift to make a male into a female. It's not a judgement to have sex segregated sports and prisons, it's a necessary recourse for fairness and safety. It's not a judgement to apply carefully set out criteria to achieve that. Indeed, by setting out criteria we avoid judgement.

If the criteria is not male/female, it would require a lot more judgement wouldn't it. Someone has to judge which males exactly are allowed in the women's prison, which males exactly are allowed to run in the women's race. Where do you draw the line? Who has to make the call? Male/female is the only possible line I can see that won't require an impossible degree of judgement.

@janeinthewild

Do you think men and women have different types of mind, and that it's the mental differences rather than our different body types that is the actual difference between men and women?

Do you think it's the mental differences not the physical differences that make the gap between men and women in sport?

Do you think women are belittled, abused and raped by men because they are reacting to something in our minds rather than how society frames our bodies?

Do you think female bodied people don't need their own political voice and rights because only these mental differences matter?

I spoke to trans people. I learned that it is more than just changing your appearance, and that they cannot control their feelings

I'm sure most trans people are genuine in what they feel and believe. But that's not the same thing as being right.

What they are demanding because of their feelings is the wholesale redefinition of Man and Woman into different types of mind, with massive repercussions for female people in terms of our rights, protections, oppotunities and political voice. And that also matters.

Exactly @thirdfiddle.

If a man says he a women, then he should just be allowed to compete against women in sport.

Why does he have to have a set level of testosterone? Isn’t that just really transphobic? He should just be able to compete against women - because he says he’s a woman. I mean, either he is or he isn’t.

We should therefore do away with sex categories altogether, so as to make it fully accessible for all men who say they’re women.

We must include all men, otherwise it’s not fair for them.

I mean, OK, that then means it’s 100% unfair on women, but that OK, they’re only women and they don’t matter. Only men matter.

We might all want to respect the rights and freedoms of all people to live the lives they want to live. And to dress, identify and sleep with who they want ( if they want to too).

But what we haven't been so good at is balancing the rights of different groups of people where they come into conflict and resolving those conflicts. So whilst we accept that the right to freedom of speech is very important we also accept that in certain circumstances it is restricted - for example inciting racial hatred or publishing paedophilic pornography.

What's happened with trans people is that the respect and tolerance for their rights has started to impinge upon and override women's rights - to safe spaces, equity and representation. So that the demand for their safety has directly undermined women's own hard won sense of safety. Inevitably this debate has become personalised and emotional and most recently where the EHRC have tried to navigate this conflict from a rights based approach those that have led it have been subjected to personal attack. Personally I think
It would help if we could address it objectively with a grown up principled rights based approach but in the absence of progress we are beginning to see boundaries being introduced sector by sector - starting with women's sport. This progression needs to continue through access to services and facilities; refuges, prisons, leisure facilities, health, toilets, changing rooms, representation.

I think it would be preferable if the high level rights approach could progress this issue in a more civilised and objective way.

They're all human at the end of the day so they deserve the same resepct and love.

Even if all humans deserve respect and love (though do you really think that? Rapists, child sex offenders, violent dictators? anyway...) - why should that mean we have to agree with things that aren't true? We don't have to agree with an anorexic that they're fat, or someone who claims to be 30 when they're 50, or someone delusional who thinks they're Jesus, or Rachel Dolezal who is white but identifies as black - however much they might believe it or wish it themselves.

I don't mind how people want to see themselves or what gender stereotypes they're drawn to, but why are we supposed to accept trans people as somehow not the sex they actually are, just on their say so, when this doesn't apply to anyone else? Especially when the sex you are is sometimes really important for safety and fairness, such as in sport or in prison.

Are you just saying "be kind" "they're human so they deserve respect" without thinking about what you're really saying and why it only applies to some people? In a situation where accepting this almost always disadvantages women and benefits men - especially dangerous and predatory men? Have you thought about why you have been encouraged to "be kind" in this particular context?

I'm a woman, but no one reassures me that I am a woman to "be kind". That's because I'm not male.

@StephanieSuperpowers I have reached the judgement that I support and trust transgender people.

No, I don't judge. And if I ever were to unfairly judge a group of people for something they cannot control, I'd keep my views to mysef

Do bear in mind that you are talking to people here that after considerable research that understand the motivation men have for transition.

And there are multiple different motivations. It's very different for heterosexual men to homosexual men, and for younger cohorts to older. So who are you talking about?