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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Angry with my non binary brother- how to help SIL

292 replies

Angrywithmybrother · 03/05/2023 12:40

I’m a long time lurker on these boards but feel confounded by this recent situation in my own life. I’m thinking just typing it will help.

My brother (in his 40s) came out as non-binary last year. He was quite tearful when he told me as he thinks I’m a TERF and probably thought I’d react badly. I didn’t say much - “I can see why you would want to go move away from narrow gender constructs” or something like that. My parents didn’t say much either apparently. I don’t think they understand the issues.

I saw my SIL recently at a family event and got chatting to her. She basically said that she is devastated by the whole thing. Apparently my brother just announced it to her and their friends at the same time. He has started to go to work and social events ‘as a woman’ now. Dressed in a stereotypical female way. He has also started to repeatedly correct their children’s use of pronouns towards him, even though they don’t understand. If my SIL questions it he calls her a transphobe and a bigot. She said she is at breaking point.

I’m just wondering if anyone has had any luck talking to someone about this and getting them to see both sides. I feel like my brother has been radicalised.

OP posts:
Boiledbeetle · 03/05/2023 19:49

Pluvia · 03/05/2023 18:09

Mods, I've asked several time on this forum whether we are allowed to use a medical/ psychological term — autogynephilia. I haven't received an answer from you but I note that various of my posts in which I use the word still stand, so I am assuming it is now acceptable.

Tortoise, how do you know he has gender dysphoria? Most men who transition later in life are autogynephiles and people posting on this forum understand what autogynephilia is.

He's married a woman and had children. Behaving abusively to them is not acceptable.

They started ignoring the Autogynephilia posts when an article was published in the Times back end of last year? The article was posted as a thread and it was allowed to stand. So in and of itself it's fine. Obviously probably still seen as an issue if you accuse a poster of being of one but other than that it seems to stand now.

NotTerfNorCis · 03/05/2023 19:53

DancingTortoise · 03/05/2023 12:48

I think the best thing you can do is try to accept her for who she is and support her and her family as best you can.

They! Don't be phobic now.

Pluvia · 03/05/2023 20:04

They started ignoring the Autogynephilia posts when an article was published in the Times back end of last year? The article was posted as a thread and it was allowed to stand. So in and of itself it's fine. Obviously probably still seen as an issue if you accuse a poster of being of one but other than that it seems to stand now.

I thought so too, but last week I had a short post deleted and the only thing in it that was contentious was the word 'autogynephilia', which is why I've started asking.

OMG12 · 03/05/2023 20:08

Boiledbeetle · 03/05/2023 15:42

Why do we keep being told to respect men who show no respect to women? No one deserves or should expect respect.

Respect is something you earn.

Because even when they’re in a dress men’s wants and fetishes come above women’s needs and well-being every time - this is due to women’s role to facilitate the desires of me - keep up!

Boiledbeetle · 03/05/2023 20:22

Pluvia · 03/05/2023 20:04

They started ignoring the Autogynephilia posts when an article was published in the Times back end of last year? The article was posted as a thread and it was allowed to stand. So in and of itself it's fine. Obviously probably still seen as an issue if you accuse a poster of being of one but other than that it seems to stand now.

I thought so too, but last week I had a short post deleted and the only thing in it that was contentious was the word 'autogynephilia', which is why I've started asking.

Oh. Interesting. I suppose it must still depend on who is doing the reporting and the moderating then

Angrywithmybrother · 03/05/2023 20:24

DancingTortoise · 03/05/2023 15:46

I absolutely understand the pain and the shock. Coming to understand and accept the transition would likely be a process. However, if you want a situation where the non-binary parent can be who who they really are and their family relationships can avoid breaking down, then there will need to be some form of accommodation on all sides.

A reminder btw that in the past, when things were less tolerant, gay and lesbian people not uncommonly ended up in marriages with persons of the opposite gender due to social pressure. That could create some very painful situations. Similar to that, in the current age, we do sometimes see people entering relationships and even beginning families before having recognised or come to terms with their gender identities. My heart really goes out to all the people who go through pain in these situations. But let’s not pretend hating on trans people or pressuring people to repress their gender identity is a solution to anything.

He’s not willing to accommodate or compromise at all. That’s what is so upsetting.

OP posts:
Boiledbeetle · 03/05/2023 20:25

OMG12 · 03/05/2023 20:08

Because even when they’re in a dress men’s wants and fetishes come above women’s needs and well-being every time - this is due to women’s role to facilitate the desires of me - keep up!

yeah, I've thought about it, considered it and like hell am I facilitating the desires of men (you in the other hand, well it depends what your desire are! - I'm covering all bases didn't know if you meant men, and you'd just missed a letter off)

Angrywithmybrother · 03/05/2023 20:27

Thelittlekingdom · 03/05/2023 16:23

How does your SIL feel? For me, if I was your SIL, I’d leave. He’s not the person she thought he was. I think all you can do is offer support and keep the lines of communication open so she knows you’re there for her. It sounds like your brother is being hugely abusive towards her.

She wants to work it out but he says it’s not up for discussion as he needs to be allowed to be himself.

OP posts:
Boiledbeetle · 03/05/2023 20:29

Angrywithmybrother · 03/05/2023 20:27

She wants to work it out but he says it’s not up for discussion as he needs to be allowed to be himself.

Does she not yet realise her marriage is effectively over! Just on the abuse bit, never mind the non binary bit.I

Can I ask, what was he like before this bomb shell?

TheShellBeach · 03/05/2023 20:34

Angrywithmybrother · 03/05/2023 20:27

She wants to work it out but he says it’s not up for discussion as he needs to be allowed to be himself.

I think it's highly likely that his true nature will be revealed fairly soon, and he'll go full-on transwoman.

FrancescaContini · 03/05/2023 20:35

Your poor SiL, and her poor children.

OMG12 · 03/05/2023 20:36

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Crouton19 · 03/05/2023 20:38

@Angrywithmybrother
my brother (30s) also said he was NB before then saying he is a TW. It is not just your SIL’s well-being but the whole family which is being affected. I’ve been on an arduous personal journey the last couple of years and it’s not over. A lot of the support resources are for parents of trans identifying children or in some cases, for wives, but not much for adult relatives of trans adults. I’ve learned a lot but still angry and the analogy to radicalisation is spot on.

Pls feel free to message me if you need to and I’ll share the resources I’ve found. This is tough and it is hard to remember the person your brother is without/before this but it is essential to do so to stay sane.

Dymaxion · 03/05/2023 20:40

I feel so sorry for your SIL @Angrywithmybrother , its such a huge, sudden and unexpected change to her and her childrens lives, very similar to that of a bereavement, but with the added bonus that there is an expectation in society at the moment that she must be supportive of her husbands journey down the gender rabbit hole, whether he ends up non-binary, gender fluid or a transwoman.
There is no room for her to mourn the loss of her life as she knew it and the relationship she thought she had, there is only 'Be kind or else' !

nilsmousehammer · 03/05/2023 20:41

Angrywithmybrother · 03/05/2023 20:27

She wants to work it out but he says it’s not up for discussion as he needs to be allowed to be himself.

Then it sounds like he's set his terms and he's not willing to try and work with her.

Women's Aid and the Transwidows are her best source of how to move forward with what she needs and how to best help the kids through this now. I am sorry.

RedToothBrush · 03/05/2023 20:44

Crouton19 · 03/05/2023 20:38

@Angrywithmybrother
my brother (30s) also said he was NB before then saying he is a TW. It is not just your SIL’s well-being but the whole family which is being affected. I’ve been on an arduous personal journey the last couple of years and it’s not over. A lot of the support resources are for parents of trans identifying children or in some cases, for wives, but not much for adult relatives of trans adults. I’ve learned a lot but still angry and the analogy to radicalisation is spot on.

Pls feel free to message me if you need to and I’ll share the resources I’ve found. This is tough and it is hard to remember the person your brother is without/before this but it is essential to do so to stay sane.

I echo this.

Tbh, I feel much better just doing my own thing. Not worrying about the guilt. I think a lot of the problem is the social emotional stuff that almost makes you feel hostage to 'being kind' at your own expense.

It's the simple shit that gets to me most - being asked if I've brothers or sisters in a conversation which is supposed to be polite chit chat rather than full on. I don't feel I can lie but it's hard to explain to people you don't know well and have no idea how they will react.

I think getting to the point where I just don't care about other people's opinion has taken me a long time but it's liberating.

AnotherEmma · 03/05/2023 20:46

Angrywithmybrother · 03/05/2023 20:27

She wants to work it out but he says it’s not up for discussion as he needs to be allowed to be himself.

OK so she definitely needs to leave him then.
And might benefit from counselling for herself.
But no point trying couple's counselling. They may need mediation, though, for the separation and divorce.

Angrywithmybrother · 03/05/2023 21:14

Thank you @Crouton19 and others who have shared personally. There is a lot to think about.

I’m going to try and support SIL as best I can by being there. I’m so angry that literally no one had considered if she was even ok with things or not. Angry with myself too.

I'm going to let the thread slip away now- before it becomes too outing.

OP posts:
OMG12 · 03/05/2023 21:37

I’d love to know why my message was deleted for saying I’ve never had a dick!

Mojo777 · 03/05/2023 22:25

@Angrywithmybrother Good wishes to you and your sil. xo

literalviolence · 03/05/2023 22:28

Angrywithmybrother · 03/05/2023 20:27

She wants to work it out but he says it’s not up for discussion as he needs to be allowed to be himself.

He must have serious issues if he can't be himself whilst accepting that he is, and always will be, a man. But your SIL does not have to make it all OK for him. He's in a place of just taking and no giving and that's no foundation for a marriage. I do think she will just have to accept that the marriage is over and start divorce proceedings. Things will only be dragged out for her and the kids if she doesn't act now and they need to come first.

literalviolence · 03/05/2023 22:30

AskMeMore · 03/05/2023 15:19

Demonising your brother is not helpful. Him and his wife will split up, eventually. But he will still have access to his kids. Kids hearing their father being demonised tend to get very upset and may stop contact as they get older with the person doing this.
Just react how you would as if he had come out as gay. Say to him he should have told his wife and kids privately first. And that this is a difficult time of adjustment for everyone and he should be sensitive to that.

That's ridiculous. This is nothing like coming out as gay. This is everything like coming out as a person who completely believes in 1950's stereotypes and stomping all over women's rights FFS. Shitty thing to suggest that gay people are like that.

DancingTortoise · 04/05/2023 00:04

Angrywithmybrother · 03/05/2023 21:14

Thank you @Crouton19 and others who have shared personally. There is a lot to think about.

I’m going to try and support SIL as best I can by being there. I’m so angry that literally no one had considered if she was even ok with things or not. Angry with myself too.

I'm going to let the thread slip away now- before it becomes too outing.

Best wishes. I do hope this all works out better than you fear it will.

RedToothBrush · 04/05/2023 07:09

literalviolence · 03/05/2023 22:30

That's ridiculous. This is nothing like coming out as gay. This is everything like coming out as a person who completely believes in 1950's stereotypes and stomping all over women's rights FFS. Shitty thing to suggest that gay people are like that.

As I said up thread this is one of the things said to me that's always boiled my piss most.

The false equivalence of it emotionally blackmails, it shows a deep lack of understanding of the issues and pattern of behaviour and yes it's utterly disrespectful to both women and gay people.

It's ALWAYS said by people outside a family unit. Experiencing it within the family unit is completely different and the pressures it creates often don't get seen even by close friends.

One of the key things is it gets caught up with your own identity issues and identity formation.

Identity forms not just as a individual thing but also as a collective thing. You are the only daughter in a family or the second born child who grew up with an older brother or you gave birth to a boy and a girl. Our socialisation places certain experiences upon us because of that whether we like it or not. You relate to other people outside the family unit on that basis. That's why people ask you in polite conservative with you have any brothers or sisters and your birth order - to share a life experience. Our identity formation as a child is one of our most crucial and forms the foundation of our stability throughout life. Any major life disruptions to our formative family unit have an impact.

Coming out as gay simply doesn't have that same impact. It might change some expectations of nieces / nephews / grandchildren. But it doesn't fundamentally change the person or the relationship.

When someone becomes trans it's a lot more complex. It affects the relational identity of others closest to them. You have to navigate the minefield of your own personal history and how your identity has formed versus the emotional and political baggage of someone else. Do you answer you have a brother or sister? When someone asks you this they are looking for things in common in life experience. If you answer on the basis of your childhood experience do you betray the gender woo but enable yourself to relate to the other person or do you follow the lie but then inhibit your own ability to relate. Or if you are the second child and only daughter and you then become the second daughter how does that impact your sibling relationship/ rivalry?

Or if they present as a woman, and dress in similar clothes to you how does that affect your own self esteem. Unlike anyone else you LOOK alike? It is like looking into a warped mirror and it felt deeply disrespectful and as if they were aping you in mock in a way that a close relation won't get (I believe that transwidows often feel that they are being copied and constantly observed too in a similar thing - but it's slightly different as there isn't the biological element).

And then they are asking you to behave differently to them and treat them 'like a woman'. This is an explicit rejection of your previous relationship with them and saying they are a different person (even though everyone says they are the same person).

And it comes with the emotional abuse to not get it wrong. Ever. Because the burden of validation is put on you more than anyone else. You are asked to put all your feelings aside and comply unconditionally. It's almost an extreme pushing of boundaries and the sibling relationship which affects the balance of power. You are no longer equals because you have to 'be kind' whilst they are given a free pass to be a twat to everyone close to them because they are going through such a big life change. Ignoring the life change to family members...

It is NOT like being gay and I find it incredibly offensive when people suggest it now. It's ignorant.

RedToothBrush · 04/05/2023 07:34

It took me a long time to grasp why it affected me so badly and why the mantras of 'but it's just like being gay' really didn't fit or feel right.

Recognising the impact of identity formation and how a change in identity creates a ripple effect in others really helped process it all.

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