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Original poster

Angry with my non binary brother- how to help SIL

292 replies

Angrywithmybrother · 03/05/2023 12:40

I’m a long time lurker on these boards but feel confounded by this recent situation in my own life. I’m thinking just typing it will help.

My brother (in his 40s) came out as non-binary last year. He was quite tearful when he told me as he thinks I’m a TERF and probably thought I’d react badly. I didn’t say much - “I can see why you would want to go move away from narrow gender constructs” or something like that. My parents didn’t say much either apparently. I don’t think they understand the issues.

I saw my SIL recently at a family event and got chatting to her. She basically said that she is devastated by the whole thing. Apparently my brother just announced it to her and their friends at the same time. He has started to go to work and social events ‘as a woman’ now. Dressed in a stereotypical female way. He has also started to repeatedly correct their children’s use of pronouns towards him, even though they don’t understand. If my SIL questions it he calls her a transphobe and a bigot. She said she is at breaking point.

I’m just wondering if anyone has had any luck talking to someone about this and getting them to see both sides. I feel like my brother has been radicalised.

OP posts:
Naunet · 03/05/2023 15:33

What I am sure about is the person’s gender identity needs to be respected and accommodated

No it doesn’t, especially by the SIL seeing as he hasn’t respected her wish to marry a man and her sexuality. Don’t demand women respect people who have shown them no respect or consideration FFS.

literalviolence · 03/05/2023 15:36

inamarina · 03/05/2023 15:13

Non binary is such a strange concept. I think you’re right, it’s mostly about declaring yourself special and different to all the „normal“ people around you.
I know a woman in her forties who started calling herself non binary on social media in the last couple of years. I‘ve vaguely known her for over ten years, nothing about her look and the way she’s presenting herself changed (other than the added pronouns in her bio) - but than again she’s exactly the type to slap a label like this onto herself, to appear different, special and somewhat oppressed.

Show quote history

I'm non binary. I think most people are. Therefore I think it's a pointless label. Much like saying I order sandals in the summer or something else as mundane and irrelevant to other people.

RedToothBrush · 03/05/2023 15:38

DancingTortoise · 03/05/2023 15:23

To be clear, my empathy is absolutely with the SIL and the children, not just with the non-binary person. It may be that the way the non-binary person came out was messy and led to more pain than was necessary. These things often are like that, sadly. Coming out can be a difficult process to explain or rationalise.

What I am sure about is the person’s gender identity needs to be respected and accommodated. The very worst thing to happen would be an avalanche of hate.

I quite agree with the point others have made that it would be understandable if the SIL felt this was the end of the marriage. But that’s a very personal thing, really. It’s down to them, not us. Hopefully though they can maintain a relationship that is civil.

Bullshit.

It's the script.

It's always the same. Always self indulgent 'its so hard' whilst splashing it all over social media.

Even then, 'it's so hard' is not an excuse for the emotional blackmail and abuse he's dishing out.

someoneisalwaysintheloo · 03/05/2023 15:40

I would support your SIL the best you can.

Your DB obviously enjoys the applause for how stunning and brave he is with zero regard for anyone else.

Gymnopedie · 03/05/2023 15:41

What I am sure about is the person’s gender identity needs to be respected and accommodated.

And what about he/she shows some respect and accommodation to the feelings of the wife and children? You've said you have empathy for the SIL and children, but nowhere that they deserve respect and consideration.

Barbecuebeans · 03/05/2023 15:41

AnotherEmma · 03/05/2023 14:48

Well, if she sees a therapist by herself, the focus will be on her and her own feelings. That's the point of individual therapy.

Whether or not they attempt couple's therapy will depend, I expect, how how interested they both are in working on their relationship, and if they were going to attempt it, they would need to choose the therapist carefully. Of course some couple's therapist are better than others, but in theory the therapist should be supporting them both to communicate their feelings and needs to each other, and not focusing on one person over the other. In theory!

If I was her I'd be furious that he chose to announce it to her and friends without talking to her about it first. That feels like a betrayal.

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Not all therapists are neutral on gender issues. There are an awful lot that believe that anything remotely gender critical or even exploratory of trans people's reasons for transitioning is automatically transphobic. There is no room for exploring whether mental illness or personality disorder might underlie people's reasons for transitioning, even though there's evidence for this, including the number of people who detransition.

I would recommend speaking to several counsellors over the phone to ascertain their stance on supporting people in your SIL's position. The worst thing would be for her to be guilted by a professional into only seeing her husband's perspective and foregrounding his feelings rather than safely and with support exploring her own feelings about his transition.

bd67thSaysReinstateLangCleg · 03/05/2023 15:41

He explained how harmful it is to use wrong prounouns, etc.

I think I just walked into a Coronation bunting factory.🚩This kind of desire to control what other people say is unnerving. What else does he want to control?

RedToothBrush · 03/05/2023 15:42

What I am sure about is the person’s gender identity needs to be respected and accommodated. The very worst thing to happen would be an avalanche of hate.

Yes and we should completely ignore how the SIL identifies, because all she is, is a support human to her husband and she doesn't have the right to say 'my husband is a lying abusive male who has absolutely no respect for my feelings.'

Never mind the effect on the kids ...

It's ALWAYS about bowing to the man and his hurty feelz.

Boiledbeetle · 03/05/2023 15:42

Why do we keep being told to respect men who show no respect to women? No one deserves or should expect respect.

Respect is something you earn.

TeenLifeMum · 03/05/2023 15:42

If my dh suddenly became a “lad” down the pub with mates every Friday night we’d split. He wouldn’t be the man I married or the man I love. Your sil can be respectful of her dh’s wishes but that doesn’t have to mean she stands by him. Divorce and move on - her dh didn’t give much thought to her or her feelings in the way he came out.

nilsmousehammer · 03/05/2023 15:43

It's a live demonstration however of what the trans widows explain experiencing all the time.

That even on a women's rights forum, where a woman quietly asks for support for another woman, there's someone who will dive in to remind her that it's always most important to centre, respect and understand the man.

Rather than be able to focus on the woman and allow her to have even ONE woman centred place where her needs take precedence.

DancingTortoise · 03/05/2023 15:46

CharlieBoo · 03/05/2023 15:28

@DancingTortoise but he’s genetically a man. The posters SIL married a MAN. Suddenly deciding to identify as a woman when you’re a married man with children and expecting them to just accept it??? You think that’s ok??

I absolutely understand the pain and the shock. Coming to understand and accept the transition would likely be a process. However, if you want a situation where the non-binary parent can be who who they really are and their family relationships can avoid breaking down, then there will need to be some form of accommodation on all sides.

A reminder btw that in the past, when things were less tolerant, gay and lesbian people not uncommonly ended up in marriages with persons of the opposite gender due to social pressure. That could create some very painful situations. Similar to that, in the current age, we do sometimes see people entering relationships and even beginning families before having recognised or come to terms with their gender identities. My heart really goes out to all the people who go through pain in these situations. But let’s not pretend hating on trans people or pressuring people to repress their gender identity is a solution to anything.

SlightlyJaded · 03/05/2023 15:46

Yes please reassure SIL that she shouldn't be afraid or ASHAMED to 'want divorce'. It does not make her a bigot FFS

We are allowed divorce for any reason we like - but heaven forbid we should not be attracted to or want to stay with a man who wants to wear dresses, be spiteful and superior to his wife, confuse his children and spout self-absorbed vitriol. Oh no - how very un-cool.

Furious on her behalf.

RudsyFarmer · 03/05/2023 15:49

DancingTortoise · 03/05/2023 12:48

I think the best thing you can do is try to accept her for who she is and support her and her family as best you can.

Who are we accepting as a ‘her’ in this case? I thought non binary was ‘they’?

Maryslargelamb · 03/05/2023 15:50

It may be that the way the non-binary person came out was messy and led to more pain than was necessary. These things often are like that, sadly. Coming out can be a difficult process to explain or rationalise

Your politics has made you detached from reality. Everyone, everyone, understands that you have conversations with your spouse before telling the rest of your social circle. The fact he did that is not 'messy', its calculated.

You are not actually doing trans people any favours by trying to justify self-indulgent, narcissism.

NotHavingIt · 03/05/2023 15:52

DancingTortoise · 03/05/2023 12:48

I think the best thing you can do is try to accept her for who she is and support her and her family as best you can.

It's her brother.....

Gymnopedie · 03/05/2023 15:52

My take on it is simple. Any man (ie a person with XY chromosomes) who says they feel like a woman, then behave as the brother is doing here, absolutely does NOT feel like a woman. They feel (and behave) like a man in a dress.

BreadInCaptivity · 03/05/2023 15:55

I've posted before about a conversation I had years ago with a TW.

They were very hurt by their wife and children's difficulties in coming to terms with their "authentic self" and spoiling their happiness.

Their point was "I'm still the same person after all".

They simply couldn't accept their happiness had come at a great cost to their family and that no, they were not the same person their wife and children thought they knew.

Either they had been lying for years by failing to disclose their gender identity and in doing so selfishly denied their wife the ability to know who she was marrying and having children with, or he was lying now about the reasons for wanting to transition.

His wife and children didn't look at Lola (made up name) and still "see" Len. They saw a total stranger who looked exactly what they were - a man in women's clothes who was demanding to be called by a new name and had renounced the word father.

Imagine what that does to a child. You can't call me Dad anymore....but then be hurt because the child doesn't "see" the "same person they have always been".

The person they thought they knew wouldn't have behaved in this way, been so selfish and narcissistic. They had become a very different person or had spent over a decade pretending to be someone they weren't.

Your brother wants to have his cake and eat it and frankly he's not presenting as NB - he's presenting as a TW.

I'd be supportive of your SIL and tell her to get the hell out of this marriage sooner rather than later.

She might be worried about the children but they will do better with her than if she tries to stay. He may apply for contact but it's hard to enforce if the children don't want to see him (and he is bullying them re: pronouns) and tbh he's likely to be far too immersed in his gender euphoria to give a shit about them anyway.

Personally I'd pack my bags and move as far from him as possible to start again.

Ericaequites · 03/05/2023 15:56

I’d like to recommend an American book for the SIL, sister, and others experiencing the pain of autogynophilic men transitioning away from marriage. Christine Benevento’s Changes: A Memoir of Marriage, Gender, and Moving On is the autobiography of a wife and mother of young children becoming a trans widow and leaving her former husband who now identified as a woman. The former husband is AGP, and resents her wife’s unenthusiastic reaction to these changes and how they will affect their marriage and children. It was written in 2012, but anticipated many trends. I have no financial interest, but the book is a good way to gain affirmation while you find support from a therapist or trans widow.

RedToothBrush · 03/05/2023 15:57

DancingTortoise · 03/05/2023 15:46

I absolutely understand the pain and the shock. Coming to understand and accept the transition would likely be a process. However, if you want a situation where the non-binary parent can be who who they really are and their family relationships can avoid breaking down, then there will need to be some form of accommodation on all sides.

A reminder btw that in the past, when things were less tolerant, gay and lesbian people not uncommonly ended up in marriages with persons of the opposite gender due to social pressure. That could create some very painful situations. Similar to that, in the current age, we do sometimes see people entering relationships and even beginning families before having recognised or come to terms with their gender identities. My heart really goes out to all the people who go through pain in these situations. But let’s not pretend hating on trans people or pressuring people to repress their gender identity is a solution to anything.

Show quote history

The problem here is the 'good faith' problem.

The good faith problem assumes that there is a willingness for the women in the equation to be respected by the other party.

This simply doesn't play out in practice and there is something of a social expectation for the woman to do all the accommodating.

This man is already making demands and using emotional abuse to get what he wants and to manipulate the SIL.

He has absolutely no intention of giving an inch. Why?

Because the whole point is about control and asserting power over the rest of the family.

This pattern repeats constantly. The drive to remove agency from the woman and to stress that any desires / identity issues she may have come secondary to the man.

That is coercive.

It also assumes that the rest of the family MUST be Believers of the Faith.

Newsflash: they are under no obligation to become signed up members of Genderism if they don't believe in it.

The psychological impact on the wife and kids and how damaging this is, isn't a minor thing. Why should they be collateral damage to Dad's revelations?

I'm sorry but no.

"No" is a complete sentence. The wife did not consent to this, nor does she have to if she is unhappy. She is within her rights to say no and not try and play 'happy families' if it means she's living a lie and it makes her miserable and unable to express her own thoughts and feelings for fear of hurting the man's feelings.

And that's what it is - walking on eggshells and constantly having to bow to the slightest infraction.

willWillSmithsmith · 03/05/2023 15:59

CatchYouOnTheFlippetyFlop · 03/05/2023 14:02

Non binary people dress how they "feel" that day so if its a dress then it's a dress

No - that's gender fluid.

Non-binary is you neither 'feel' like a male or a female, so would mostly dress androgynously.

See how ridiculous it all is.

Whatever ‘feeling’ like a man or woman is. It’s all gender bollocks and I’m not afraid of saying it or being accused of being a transphobe (whatever that is either).

People like your brother are attention seeking, narcissistic twats. I know there are people who really suffer from gender confusion and truly believe they were born in the wrong body and suffer a lot of genuine anguish because of it and for them I have sympathy but people like your brother, who seems to be revelling in the attention are, in my view, frauds.

Zonder · 03/05/2023 16:00

NeedANewPhone1 · 03/05/2023 14:11

Isn't that how everyone dresses?

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I do. Gasp maybe I'm non-binary and I didn't know?

RedToothBrush · 03/05/2023 16:01

Their point was "I'm still the same person after all"

Absolutely this point about it being the greatest lie.

They say this, whilst simultaneously asking to be treated differently and behaviour in a different manner.

It's a contradiction that can not be unpicked.

And that's without all the hurt and betrayal on top.

They are a stranger. They are someone totally different to the one that the SIL married.

The lack of respect really caps it off.

Naunet · 03/05/2023 16:06

DancingTortoise · 03/05/2023 15:46

I absolutely understand the pain and the shock. Coming to understand and accept the transition would likely be a process. However, if you want a situation where the non-binary parent can be who who they really are and their family relationships can avoid breaking down, then there will need to be some form of accommodation on all sides.

A reminder btw that in the past, when things were less tolerant, gay and lesbian people not uncommonly ended up in marriages with persons of the opposite gender due to social pressure. That could create some very painful situations. Similar to that, in the current age, we do sometimes see people entering relationships and even beginning families before having recognised or come to terms with their gender identities. My heart really goes out to all the people who go through pain in these situations. But let’s not pretend hating on trans people or pressuring people to repress their gender identity is a solution to anything.

Show quote history

Who they really are is man, because they’re an adult human male. What they want is for everyone to play along that they’re something other than what they really are. That is in no way comparable to the homophobia gay people experienced, or the homophobia that gender ideology is now reintroducing by claiming same sex attraction isn’t a real thing, it’s same “gender” attraction.

Dymaxion · 03/05/2023 16:07

What I am sure about is the person’s gender identity needs to be respected and accommodated.

So everyone else in the family must shut up and put up with abuse whilst this person figures out whichever gender identity is their 'true self' ?