How gender believers sabotage conversation and debate so their views won’t be challenged

[TerfLady]

Hi there!

I tried to make the title as non-inflammatory as possible but I don’t think that’s fully possible with this topic but I saw a user on another thread make some really insightful observations that I couldn’t ignore about how woke people tend to shut down conversations and debates so they don’t have to have to challenge their own views and I thought it was really interesting!

If you want to get into this thread you might want to strap in because I’m going to get a tad long winded here. Sorry in advance. I thought about doing a TLDR but I don’t tuning it would work for this thread.

If you want to see the comment @Helleofabore replied to @cherryyoga on page 23 talking about her experience being a reformed liberal if you click on this link and how they handled arguments. Sorry I hope you both don’t mind me tagging you.
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4794270-genuinely-willing-to-discuss-in-good-faith?page=23&reply=125778813

Anyways CherryYoga discussed in bullet points how she was conditioned to handle arguments in the following ways:

-Assume their privilege
-Name call and denounce
-Removed the context (This is the part where they sabotage the conversation/debate so it can’t happen
-Stonewall (anyone whose ever tried to debate a woke liberal I think has experienced being blocked. It’s actually meme worthy at this point.)

Now she goes into this list a lot deeper so I recommend you read her comment because it would take a lot of space here!

I find this pattern extremely familiar and interesting. If we know this pattern it definitely looks from the outside like they just don’t want to talk to you once they discover that you have an opinion they don’t like. Yet there were several people like this expressing their frustration that they could not have a conversation while knowingly or unknowingly sabotaging the conversation. Why is that?

Because you might not know that I’m also an ex liberal and I did exactly word for word what CherryYoga described and I’m now on the other side scratching my head. I remember the frustration thinking the “alt right” just didn’t care. Feeling defeated and thinking conversation just wasn’t possible and then coming out on the other side asking myself why I ever thought that. 😧🧐

The conversation was only impossible because I made it impossible because I couldn’t accept their ideas because I saw them as an attack on vulnerable people. But it turns out that was far from the truth.

I wonder if there are other reformed woke people that wanted to share their experiences if they had arguments or debated this way? Is there a way we can reach them gently without surrendering our values?

Or is it better to just save our breath for the people that are ready to listen?

What are good strategies for poking holes in their “argument” strategies if we feel we must debate them?

Faith based, Utopian or oter idealistic positions resist challenge at all cost.
They can never cope with the nature of material reality or with the actual nature of human beings.

One of the main problems when discusssing this issue is the conflation of 'Sex' with 'Gender'.

Nobody can literally swap sex - and swapping gender means very little outside of conformity or non conformity to imagined gendered stereotypes.

I continually find I cannot answer those questions, nor argue that position as devil's advocate, unless I come from a starting point of belief that male humans have a priority and higher level of rights and entitlements and female humans are a different and lower sort of set of rights that come after male needs have been met. And that they are resources, and their consent is nice to have but lack of it cannot be permitted to get in the way of using them to meet male need.

Which seems extremely sex based, binary thinking to me. But the defining feature of the 'needs must be met group' is that they are all male, and the defining feature of 'consent is not a barrier to forcible use to meet male need' is that they are all female.

Which rather messes up the whole 'changing sex' concept. And gender behaviour identifying groups thing. The 'resource' group aren't all long hair, high heels, crocheting, gentle, non-map reading, non-parking, lipstick wearing, they just all have female biology. And the male biology people at no point move into the 'resource' group outside of purchasable porn fantasy within situations of limits and consent.

@PurpleBugz
All good 👍👍👍

This is such an interesting thread. It's prompted me to look back on the very first comment I ever made on this board as it's directly related to the topic in hand. I had been a long time lurker and what prompted me to make my first ever comment was a post that was raised "genuinely in good faith".

Here is the thread I'm referring to:
Link

Having since seen a few threads go the same way as the one referenced by @TerfLady when opening this thread, I went back to it and read through every comment up to the point when the OP of that (the one I've linked above) thread left. I did read a few that were posted after the OP left but there were 32 more pages and I started losing the will to continue 😬😁

Here's what I learned from the thread I've linked above (all by own opinion, obviously):

1. I still believe the OP was posting in good faith. Right from the start she said she was a transsexual who did not believe she was a woman and that she understood why she shouldn't be using women's toilets/spaces
2. There were some unhelpful comments and tangental probing of the OP that were pretty personal. In the end, the OP did say she and her partner ("also a man" in her words) had adopted their child. It wasn't relevant to the original post so she didn't really need to say this.
3. There was lots of empathy for the OP but it was interspersed with some (understandable) frustration and some (rude and unnecessary) jibes.
4. The OP signed off by saying that they had been given some really helpful for for thought on how to move forward with their problem (I'm assuming campaigning for third spaces from the context of everything) but that it was too hurtful to stay. I can understand why.
5. An opportunity was lost for further meaningful discussion with someone who tried to reach across the bridge that @CeciNestPasUnPipi describes. I can't imagine that OP will ever return to the FWR board, given their experience.

*food for thought
*all my own opinion, obviously

Grrrrr. Typos.

I continually find I cannot answer those questions, nor argue that position as devil's advocate, unless I come from a starting point of belief that male humans have a priority and higher level of rights and entitlements and female humans are a different and lower sort of set of rights that come after male needs have been met. And that they are resources, and their consent is nice to have but lack of it cannot be permitted to get in the way of using them to meet male need

Absolutely this. This is absolutely the unconscious starting point underpinning all gender ideology/ TRA thinking.

And what is has exposed, through the wide adoption of gender ideology across continents, is that this unconscious assumption is in wider society in the wider world too. Turns out women’s rights were never rights at all, but privileges granted and now removed when male people were bothered by them.

@FriendofJoanne

I've read your blog with interest and have encountered most of the positions and read many of the articles, which you linked to. I haven't read Judith Butler's book, although I have seen some of her articles.

I was struck that an intelligent and articulate person could write this - without understanding the logical failure.

How can something dimorphic have a multiplicity of traits? It makes no sense.

(Hopefully it'll post this time, I think that the text I copied from your blog wasn't MN friendly...)

I can’t steelman without the preface i can argue against this steelman I would be so unhappy if a lurker only reads my steelman and doesn’t see it picked apart..although reading others comments I feel it should be clear it can be. ultimately im doing this exercise to try to understand the other side but the exercise has only reinforced my own position as trans women are not women.

Steelman answer to Nilsmousehammer

“I can see where someone in distress regarding their physical reality is coming from, and how they hope that others would be able to set it aside and see them as they want to be seen. I really can.”

“Isla Bryson, Karen White, Katie Dolotowski all successfully used that trust to injure women. Repeatedly. “

Would the little disadvantaged white boy from the neighbourhood be included with all his friends in the charity for local black disadvantaged children? or would the healthy adult be allowed to make a wheelchair user wait for the toilet. Sometimes the right thing is obvious and others it’s clear we should consider bending the rules for that person. But people are prejudiced with trans people so the rules are never bent to allow for them to use the appropriate facilities/jobs/money/etc this is why we need to abolish the legal definition of women as biological it’s used to discriminate. it’s just to give fair access to what everyone else gets fairly.

Clearly it goes the other way to that there are some that should be excluded despite their gender? There are female pedophiles. Rare but they exist. These were predictory people committing these crimes. But they are still women much as a person born female would be in these crimes.. If my example of the little white boy was actually a bully who stole the other poor kids lunches spat racial slurs and was controlling all the kids at school he would never be included on the holiday trip.

We will find examples on both sides. The fact is we have prejudiced people making decisions so the right rules are not bent. We need to do away with the restrictions and rely on the judgement of those around a situation who understand it. People standing by should challenge a clearly predatory male in a woman’s space. Staff should not allow people in if they are dangerous. Employers should ensure they don’t hire predators to work with vulnerable people.

“. How is it ok to ask women to be open minded about sucking up a rape or two so that male people don't have to cope with the distress of boundaries that protect women?”

What about my little disadvantaged white boy example. All his friends he plays football with at school and after school in the neighbourhood are being taken away to watch a real live football match in the holidays! It is by the beach. He’s never seen the sea him mum can’t afford holidays. All his friends want him to be with them too and the charity has enough money to pay for it. Should he be excluded? People use the word women to prejudiced against trans. This little white boy would probably go on the trip right? It’s aimed at disadvantaged kids in his area. It’s not his fault he was born in a very non white area and has no white peers to play with at school. So you wouldn’t say just back kids can come on this trip because our statistics show it’s predominantly black kids who have no access to fun activities like this from this area. It’s a week long trip. All of half term. Little Timmy has no other friends to play with and him mum is always working. His friends mum usually does him lunch in the holidays as all the kids hang out on the park right in front of his mate s house. Now he’s gonna be alone with no lunch.

“How can women be permitted to be uncomfortable about and protected in law from being vulnerable and in a state of indignity and undress around SOME male bodied people (on the grounds of them being male bodied) but feel differently about this for other male bodied people? How does this logically work?”

People around the situation would step in and stop a predatory person. It’s the fact everyone is arguing about what a woman is and taking rights from trans people that people are scared to be seen as prejudice. If the law was clear that woman is a feeling then people acting predator would be challenged because everyone knows that’s not a female characteristic. They would stand out as different. Look at those pictures of these [trans]women who do these things!

Also people like your examples would be acting like this regardless of trans. What about those stats showing I now can’t remember the ethnicity but it was Muslim men pedfile sex rings were a thing in some areas? A woman did a speech people did discuss it on here I remember. Because people like that exist and happen to be Muslim should we say they acted that way because of their faith and we should now exclude all of that faith in the name of safeguarding against that tiny minority.

Steelman says should a racist feeling uncomfortable with a black person in their changing room stop them being allowed in? This is transphobia.

“What facilities and adaptations are going to be provided for this to work for them if the goal genuinely is a more equal, tolerant and accessible society?”
Toilets and changing rooms should all have individual cubicles to suit everyone.

I couldn’t end without coming out of straw man and say anybody reading this and thinking I make good arguments. Consider Gender reassignment is already a protected characteristic. They have the same legal protections as women. Think what this will be the start of with all legal protections. The use of racism or ableism in the steelman argument is concerning for me. Think what will happen to the statistics if we get rid of definite categories in equality law. How will funding be allocated when you have no data on what ethnicity gender disabilities etc are most at need??

I would personally argue racism is not comparable to sexism in this way.
Racism occurs to the already disadvantaged. You need to used black peoples racism to white people for it to be comparable.

My conclusion is most everyday people just want to be fair don't think it through like people on this board. And I feel there is a small number within the trans rights movement with a lot of power who are using it for their own ends

What is the “mental state of the biological female sex” please? How do you know that Biological Female (BF) A has the same mental state as BF B, or that of any other BF? How does it differ from the mental state of biological males? How does the sex-linked “mental state” differ from “personality”?

@BenCoopersSupportWren

What is the “mental state of the biological female sex” please?

Different for each individual and therefore cannot be defined

How does it differ from the mental state of biological males?

It will vary depending on cultural variables, age, ability etc

How does the sex-linked “mental state” differ from “personality”?
Because we use the word identity not personality. Personality does have stereotypes within it but we accept not all people conform to stereotypes.

And finally I think I've answered all the questions

@Bonfirelady

womanhood" separately from "woman"... and then once you've done that tell me what a woman is

Steelman answer
Womanhood is everything typically associated with being a woman that isn’t of the individuals own identity. It’s the societal expectations on a woman and the individuals experiencing of that. Their role in life and responsibilities etc.

Woman is a state of mind that a person has. Often as the result of their womanhood but not always. It it predominantly female characteristics like caring and nurturing and compassion but not always
It is most commonly being attracted to men but not always. Sexual orientation is diverse.

I think answering what a woman is as steelman is impossible because I don’t agree. I would like to write a book for an answer. We are all so different and varied. The only certain thing is none of us ever had a penis

Here I will offer several steelmans that you can argue that induces me to fly into a quiet rage. 😂
These questions I have trouble deflecting not because I don’t understand the problem with it but because there are so many things wrong with the argument that I struggle to articulate what’s wrong with it in a simple and easy to understand way and I feel like it’s a little bit insidious and dishonest. It’s usually used when you try to describe one sex or the other or use sexual functions as an argument to reinforce the sexes.
I actually know people in person that use these arguments with a straight face and genuinely believe them so my feelings of anger turn to frustration and sadness because they believe them so fiercely and yet they seem so meek and fragile at the same time and I actually don’t want to hurt their feelings if you can believe that.

Here we go:
-Not all women have xx chromosomes.
-Not all not all women can menstruate.
-Not all women can/do give birth.
-Not all women experience menopause.
-Not all women can breastfeed.
-Not all women have breasts/a uterus/ovaries/a vagina.

And then when it’s conveniently argued backwards:
-Not all women are born female.
-Some women are very tall.
-Some women have a beard/are hairy.
-Women can and do rape women (context of the situation is never given. Example is that women trans/lesbian/a caretaker of a vulnerable person/raping on behalf of a man/ect)
-Some women have a penis/testes/prostate
-women can ejeculate/get an erection.
-Some women are as strong/stronger than men.

And then vice versa with men:
-Not all men have XY chromosomes.
-Not all men have flat chests.
-Not all men can get an erection/sire children.
-Not all men have a deep voice.
-Not all men are tall.
-Not all men have a beard/are hairy.
-Not all men are stronger than women.
-Not all men have a penis/testes/prostate.

And yet again argued backwards for male side:
-Not all men are born male.
-Some men can get pregnant.
-Some men can menstruate.
-Some men don’t have a deep voice.
-Some men are short.
-Some men have a uterus/ovaries/breasts/a vagina (or a mix of organs.)

And my personal favourite the golden “gotchas” that are more difficult for me personally to argue:

-Some people are intersex.
-Some natal men look very feminine female passing.
-Some natal women look very masculine.

-What will we do with the female passing trans women? What bathroom do they use?
see the picture of young Jazz Jennings below

-If we enforce sex based safe space laws what will we do with all the bulky, burly, very masculine, bearded, six pack weilding male passing transmen?
See the picture of Buck Angel a transman below. Be careful googling him. He is also a popular porn star. 😂
{This one I particularly struggle with because usually the person I am debating is very very deeply entwined so much with the movement that
A. They appear to no longer see men as predators and women as vulnerable for some reason. Perhaps because they are gender abolitionists who clump everyone together.
B. They think I’m being hypocritical when I say they can still go in the men’s bathroom because they are technically still a vulnerable female even if they are a very strong vulnerable female and they are actively choosing for themselves to put themselves in harms way VS the decision being made for women which results in all women being forced to be put in harms way.}

*Bonus steelman:
Trans people who look gender ambiguous in an ideal post gender critical world where gender critical people get their way.
How do we avoid discriminating against trans people who choose an occupation that is safeguarding related?
An example of a transwoman who is obviously a man is a doctor and no female patient is comfortable in her care because she is obviously a natal man? And vice versa no man is comfortable in her care because they look too feminine.
How do we protect this transwoman if few people are comfortable being their patient?
Flip the question with a transman.

Sadly it’s not just racism but they kind of… exploit every vulnerable group to levitate themselves. I think it is because they are exploiting the emotionally charged nature of these issues because most people rightfully have strong feelings about these issues and it makes us want to prove ourselves as not prejudiced.

I’ve seen racism used, antisemitism is a big one, intersex people, women are an obvious given, disabled people, lgb people. I used to struggle with this until I realized they are exploiting vulnerable groups for their own selfish gain. Then I felt angry that they were using these arguments.

Because in my opinion some of these people might care about these groups but when I really dig down some of the more creepy ones don’t actually care about these vulnerable groups. They are just using their rights to prop themselves up that kind of makes me mad.

The exploitation of intersex people makes me mad because I think intersex people have trouble speaking up for themselves because they can’t exactly PROVE they are intersex. Not to mention there are very very few of them. It’s not like they can flash us to prove they are intersex. And on the flip side technically anyone can claim they are intersex.

It’s quite likely that many true intersex people are rightfully upset with TRA’s using their struggle to uplift themselves but can’t do anything about it. That also why it made me angry when they added the intersex symbol to the progress flag. Intersex people are just a means to an end for TRA’s.

@TerfLady
Not all women have xx chromosomes.
Woman as a biological sex class do. Women as a social construct don't have to be xx
The rest of the Not all not all women statements are true.

And then vice versa with men:
Same answer in reverse. All the not all men statement's are true except the xy. I would counter that not all men can get erections and ejaculate. Is being a man dependent on this ability? Is it based on his physical characteristics or career choices and such? No it's based on his chromosomes

And yet again argued backwards for male side:
-Not all men are born male.
-Some men can get pregnant.
-Some men can menstruate.
-Some men don’t have a deep voice.
-Some men are short.
-Some men have a uterus/ovaries/breasts/a vagina (or a mix of organs.)
Only if we accept cis men and trans men into the same category. So true if we are talking gender identity but not true if we go by chromosomes

-Some people are intersex.
-Some natal men look very feminine female passing.
-Some natal women look very masculine.
Intersex is the exception that proves the rule? I think not looking or acting natal male/female is very different to being truly intersex with where their chromosomes and reproductive organs and genitalia don't fit the male/female binary. I'm sure this phenomenon happens in other species? I know it's ridiculous to say it but should be we transitioning animals who display the wrong characteristics of their sex? A female sheep rejects her lamb- is that really a ram in the sheep's body?

Reading with intrigue

@TerfLady

Re those who have transitioned as children and pass being forced back into their biological facilities. I think it's unfortunate but actually over time we will have less individuals like this. This would be where i argued for third spaces or all facilities as individual cubicles. At the end of the day the longer we allow this the more there will be who suffer. But the future protection of the most we can must be the aim not just the smaller minority? If they actually pass I say let them use their choice of facilities we can't stop them and likely try would get abuse in the wrong toilet. But in terms of legal protections they are male.

Striping the transition of children will lead to most trans not passing. I do not see this as a bad thing. If we don't go for third spaces then tough I'm afraid women's rights shouldn't be adjusted to include men which is what this is. Why don't they put their considerable lobbying power and finances towards making them safe in their natal sexed facilities. If a trans woman is unsafe in a male bathroom it's male violence that should be tackled! If a a male looking woman enters a female space women should not harass them if they say they are natal female when challenged and not acting predator then that is where they should be

@TerfLady

I agree with what you say about using all vulnerable groups. It concerns me how many people don't see it. It's obvious to me but it took hours of internet research to see it because information is misrepresented in my everyday life.

I think the lack of accurate information in our media is important. It point to powerful people behind it. I've seen discussions on following the money for example. This stuff should be headlines but it's not.

This is why we need a massive effort from the women who understand to speak up and get the truth out. Other disadvantaged groups are much smaller than us. Women are the ones who have the numbers to get this out by sheer force of will. Stop being quietly turf out of fear. We are half the population. They can't fire us all, they can't take all oir kids away for our extreme it's views. Etc.

Luckily most women care about others and I think if we get enough to understand we are going to help more than just women

I am noting other woman with things like a scarf in suforegette colours. I've bought a few tops I'm wearing. If someone brings that cake to the school/church event I'm going to suspect they are quietly gender critical like so many are.

What happens when we look around the room and see we are overwhelmingly gender critical? We will feel safer challenging policy in our workplaces and schools

Alright I have rebuttals I hope you don’t mind.

-If some women are as strong as our stronger than men how do we justify excluding trans women from women’s sports?
-Also seen the argument that why don’t we just create sports categories based on height and weight without discriminating against sex or gender? Wouldn’t that be more fair? {I’ve seen this argued on reddit a lot recently. 🤣}

-If being a biological man doesn’t depend on his ability to get an erection/ejeculate/sire children doesn’t that prove that transmen are men?
What if he can’t do those things AND his chromosomes aren’t XY? Not everyone gets their chromosomes tested. Lots of people are walking around not knowing their true chromosomes.

-Which bathroom should an intersex person use? What happens if they are mistaken for a transperson? How do we enforce sex based spaces knowing these people exist?

-Animals can’t verbally consent to having their bodies changed so we could not in good faith transition a sheep to a ram because we don’t know they identify as a ram.

I actually don’t have a rebuttal to your intersex comment about whether it proves the rule. But I’m sure someone out there has a really good one. lol

Just reading through these new steel-manning comments and my head is spinning 😬😂

Obviously that could just be me I think this illustrates how difficult it is to follow trains of thought when the fundamental question of belief is left unaddressed. If some has a fixed belief (that gender identity belief applies to everyone Vs that not everyone believes they have a gender identity), any argument against it is an argument against their belief. If your belief is being tested you have two choices:

1. you dig in deeper and rebut anything. Changing your rebuttal tactic as needed and in line with your own morals - some people will be polite, some will be rude, some will be violent and some will simply disengage so that they don't need to hear it
2. you have a realisation that you don't hold that belief after all and you switch your belief. This is what happens when people change faith or become "born again" (religion) or their views on gender identity change ("peaking" versus going to opposite way such as the OP in the original reference thread)

@TerfLady

Bring on the rebuttal I'm enjoying the exercise. I don't get to use my brainpower like this day to day. It's making me want to go back to uni

-If some women are as strong as our stronger than men how do we justify excluding trans women from women’s sports?
Strong natal women in female sports would win. But as they are women that is acceptable.

-Also seen the argument that why don’t we just create sports categories based on height and weight without discriminating against sex or gender? Wouldn’t that be more fair? {I’ve seen this argued on reddit a lot recently. 🤣}
Is this not already done where it's relevant? Such as boxing? There is nothing wrong with setting up such sporting categories and having them gender inclusive- as long as we keep the categories male and female in the existing leagues.

-If being a biological man doesn’t depend on his ability to get an erection/ejeculate/sire children doesn’t that prove that transmen are men?
Very good point. But again this is a confusion with our words. The natal man who can't procreate in the normal fashion is much as the natal women who can't procerate in the normal way. They still have the biological propensity to do so. Trans men are biologically female but gender identity male. It's two sided different definitions of the same word

What if he can’t do those things AND his chromosomes aren’t XY? Not everyone gets their chromosomes tested. Lots of people are walking around not knowing their true chromosomes.
How common is this? Really? Considering the money being spent on transitioning children and trans rights I feel like we should do these chromosome test for anyone who requests it. If the genuinely have the wrong chromosomes then they really are intersex and should be able to choose any gender correcting surgery they want and have access to counselling and support services. Perhaps our laws can allow intersex with proof into our women's rights 🤷‍♀️

-Which bathroom should an intersex person use? What happens if they are mistaken for a transperson? How do we enforce sex based spaces knowing these people exist?
I argue for the safeguarding of the many we have to accept this may happen. I actually used to have a lesbian friend who looked like a man and she would always ask a friend to go with her to the toilet as she was challenged often. I haven't asked her opinion but I doubt she's give away her female rights to stop people challenging her.

-Animals can’t verbally consent to having their bodies changed so we could not in good faith transition a sheep to a ram because we don’t know they identify as a ram.
Straw man says dogs/cat don't consent to being spayed etc but we know it is best for them not to have repeated pregnancies many some dogs/cats want to be a parent animal? We with the power make these decisions for them there. It's no different if it's a trans animal either we accept we don't know what's best for them or we accept we do.

I will attempt to rebuttal this as well.

-Third spaces are very expensive and small businesses might not be able to afford them. How will we reasonably execute this without spending a ton of money and harming them? Will currently existing businesses, schools and facilities need to renovate? Will it come out of their own pockets or will the tax payers money cover it?

-Having third spaces could be outing for vulnerable trans people that are trying to quietly transition and could make them unsafe or paint a target on their backs.

-There are trans people who transitioned as adults who pass. Buck Angel for example transitioned female to male as an adult and still has a vagina. If we are determining who can use which toilet based on how well they pass then why enforce sex based spaces in the first place? Passing is subjective. Blaire white for example is female passing [Please see picture below] and transitioned in her mid twenties and looks and sounds like a woman but still has a fully functioning penis and is open about this.

-Some trans women might think they pass but do not or someone sees through it. What happens if they use the woman’s bathroom and someone freaks out? What if they look like a woman but sounds like a man?

-If a we are going off the word of a transman that he is natal female then there is no point in bathroom bills or sex based spaces because trans women and detransitioners can look and sound very androgynous. They cannot be enforced. I’m that case we should just use the bathroom/locker room of our choice.