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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How gender believers sabotage conversation and debate so their views won’t be challenged

199 replies

TerfLady · 28/04/2023 18:07

Hi there!

I tried to make the title as non-inflammatory as possible but I don’t think that’s fully possible with this topic but I saw a user on another thread make some really insightful observations that I couldn’t ignore about how woke people tend to shut down conversations and debates so they don’t have to have to challenge their own views and I thought it was really interesting!

If you want to get into this thread you might want to strap in because I’m going to get a tad long winded here. Sorry in advance. I thought about doing a TLDR but I don’t tuning it would work for this thread.

If you want to see the comment @Helleofabore replied to @cherryyoga on page 23 talking about her experience being a reformed liberal if you click on this link and how they handled arguments. Sorry I hope you both don’t mind me tagging you.
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4794270-genuinely-willing-to-discuss-in-good-faith?page=23&reply=125778813

Anyways CherryYoga discussed in bullet points how she was conditioned to handle arguments in the following ways:

-Assume their privilege
-Name call and denounce
-Removed the context (This is the part where they sabotage the conversation/debate so it can’t happen
-Stonewall (anyone whose ever tried to debate a woke liberal I think has experienced being blocked. It’s actually meme worthy at this point.)

Now she goes into this list a lot deeper so I recommend you read her comment because it would take a lot of space here!

I find this pattern extremely familiar and interesting. If we know this pattern it definitely looks from the outside like they just don’t want to talk to you once they discover that you have an opinion they don’t like. Yet there were several people like this expressing their frustration that they could not have a conversation while knowingly or unknowingly sabotaging the conversation. Why is that?

Because you might not know that I’m also an ex liberal and I did exactly word for word what CherryYoga described and I’m now on the other side scratching my head. I remember the frustration thinking the “alt right” just didn’t care. Feeling defeated and thinking conversation just wasn’t possible and then coming out on the other side asking myself why I ever thought that. 😧🧐

The conversation was only impossible because I made it impossible because I couldn’t accept their ideas because I saw them as an attack on vulnerable people. But it turns out that was far from the truth.

I wonder if there are other reformed woke people that wanted to share their experiences if they had arguments or debated this way? Is there a way we can reach them gently without surrendering our values?

Or is it better to just save our breath for the people that are ready to listen?

What are good strategies for poking holes in their “argument” strategies if we feel we must debate them?

Page 23 | Genuinely willing to discuss in good faith | Mumsnet

Hello. This is a thread for those who are uncomfortable with black and white and less than civil discourse around self id. I welcome those wit...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4794270-genuinely-willing-to-discuss-in-good-faith?page=23&reply=125778813

OP posts:
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TerfLady · 30/04/2023 15:29

@PurpleBugz can you tell I have lots of practice making these points as an ex TRA? 😂

OP posts:
PurpleBugz · 30/04/2023 15:31

BonfireLady · 30/04/2023 15:18

Just reading through these new steel-manning comments and my head is spinning 😬😂

Obviously that could just be me I think this illustrates how difficult it is to follow trains of thought when the fundamental question of belief is left unaddressed. If some has a fixed belief (that gender identity belief applies to everyone Vs that not everyone believes they have a gender identity), any argument against it is an argument against their belief. If your belief is being tested you have two choices:

  1. you dig in deeper and rebut anything. Changing your rebuttal tactic as needed and in line with your own morals - some people will be polite, some will be rude, some will be violent and some will simply disengage so that they don't need to hear it
  2. you have a realisation that you don't hold that belief after all and you switch your belief. This is what happens when people change faith or become "born again" (religion) or their views on gender identity change ("peaking" versus going to opposite way such as the OP in the original reference thread)

Exactly.

But we don't treat trans issues as a belief system. We argue at it from sexual orientation or biological sex/gender stances.

It's a belief. Just like god. But unlike with religion where we have a tentative agree to disagree between believers and atheists and other groups it's a fierce battle to prove the other side wrong. (Although as a religious person I'd say I get challenges and condescending to on that a fair bit).

The point it you can't use religion to get at the rights of women in our country.

And it all comes down to different beliefs on the definition of women.

Personally I'd say a lot of religion over the years has been co-oped by males rights in a similar way actually. Many people reject religious orientations because of sex inequality

PurpleBugz · 30/04/2023 15:40

@terflady

Re third spaces. Maybe small businesses should only have the third space? Then it's not outing.

If all toilets were single cubicles large enough and with the right equipment for disabled people no one would be outed. And there would be better access to disabled facilities to boot.

Many mothers of small children would appreciate use of disabled sized cubicles as we can bring in our buggy.

On the subject of adult transition era who pass I think we have to accept it's a very small minority. And I don't see how their discomfort is any worse than natal men/women who look like the other sex using single sex facilities. Let them use our bathrooms. But when it comes to prisons, sports, workplaces etc where the identities of the people are known in law they should be their natal sex for the presentation of the rights of people protected by the equality act.

I think the financial lay out to create third spaces could have been covered by the money spent attacking women's rights. There could be grants for small businesses etc

BonfireLady · 30/04/2023 15:46

PurpleBugz · 30/04/2023 15:31

Exactly.

But we don't treat trans issues as a belief system. We argue at it from sexual orientation or biological sex/gender stances.

It's a belief. Just like god. But unlike with religion where we have a tentative agree to disagree between believers and atheists and other groups it's a fierce battle to prove the other side wrong. (Although as a religious person I'd say I get challenges and condescending to on that a fair bit).

The point it you can't use religion to get at the rights of women in our country.

And it all comes down to different beliefs on the definition of women.

Personally I'd say a lot of religion over the years has been co-oped by males rights in a similar way actually. Many people reject religious orientations because of sex inequality

Yep 👍👍

Personally I'd say a lot of religion over the years has been co-oped by males rights in a similar way actually. Many people reject religious orientations because of sex inequality

Interesting. Also I think some historical context applies too. Many old laws in the UK were based on religion. Most obvious one is Henry XIII creating a new religion in order to create a new law so that he could divorce his first wife. Admittedly that's the extreme end of male privilege 😂 Not many men get to be king in an age when the monarchy made the laws. There are loads more examples of old laws created with religion underpinning them though. Thankfully they've stopped trying heretics who didn't have (the right) religious belief in a kangeroo court and then burning them.. or else I'd have been a goner 🔥

PurpleBugz · 30/04/2023 16:09

@BonfireLady

Your name gives me the image of a woman burnt as a witch lol.

I love history. I could ramble on for hours on the sociology of women's experiences in history.

Terf is the new witch

PurpleBugz · 30/04/2023 16:13

I'm aware I was busy on here today. I had no kids about. They are home now so I'm checking out until after bedtime.

TerfLady · 30/04/2023 16:13

PurpleBugz · 30/04/2023 15:23

@TerfLady

Bring on the rebuttal I'm enjoying the exercise. I don't get to use my brainpower like this day to day. It's making me want to go back to uni

-If some women are as strong as our stronger than men how do we justify excluding trans women from women’s sports?
Strong natal women in female sports would win. But as they are women that is acceptable.

-Also seen the argument that why don’t we just create sports categories based on height and weight without discriminating against sex or gender? Wouldn’t that be more fair? {I’ve seen this argued on reddit a lot recently. 🤣}
Is this not already done where it's relevant? Such as boxing? There is nothing wrong with setting up such sporting categories and having them gender inclusive- as long as we keep the categories male and female in the existing leagues.

-If being a biological man doesn’t depend on his ability to get an erection/ejeculate/sire children doesn’t that prove that transmen are men?
Very good point. But again this is a confusion with our words. The natal man who can't procreate in the normal fashion is much as the natal women who can't procerate in the normal way. They still have the biological propensity to do so. Trans men are biologically female but gender identity male. It's two sided different definitions of the same word

What if he can’t do those things AND his chromosomes aren’t XY? Not everyone gets their chromosomes tested. Lots of people are walking around not knowing their true chromosomes.
How common is this? Really? Considering the money being spent on transitioning children and trans rights I feel like we should do these chromosome test for anyone who requests it. If the genuinely have the wrong chromosomes then they really are intersex and should be able to choose any gender correcting surgery they want and have access to counselling and support services. Perhaps our laws can allow intersex with proof into our women's rights 🤷‍♀️

-Which bathroom should an intersex person use? What happens if they are mistaken for a transperson? How do we enforce sex based spaces knowing these people exist?
I argue for the safeguarding of the many we have to accept this may happen. I actually used to have a lesbian friend who looked like a man and she would always ask a friend to go with her to the toilet as she was challenged often. I haven't asked her opinion but I doubt she's give away her female rights to stop people challenging her.

-Animals can’t verbally consent to having their bodies changed so we could not in good faith transition a sheep to a ram because we don’t know they identify as a ram.
Straw man says dogs/cat don't consent to being spayed etc but we know it is best for them not to have repeated pregnancies many some dogs/cats want to be a parent animal? We with the power make these decisions for them there. It's no different if it's a trans animal either we accept we don't know what's best for them or we accept we do.

“Strong natal women in female sports would win. But as they are women that is acceptable.

-If there are natal women who are as strong as men then why does it matter if trans women participate in female sports? These strong natal women should have no issue competing against trans women.
-On that note what about natal women who have naturally higher testosterone such as women with PCOS?
-Caster Semenya for example is an intersex person who has high testosterone. Should she be disqualified?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_Semenya#:~:text=Semenya%20is%20an%20intersex%20woman,to%20competition%20the%20following%20year.

“Is this not already done where it's relevant? Such as boxing? There is nothing wrong with setting up such sporting categories and having them gender inclusive- as long as we keep the categories male and female in the existing leagues.”
-I actually can’t think of a good argument against this. Good job!

“Very good point. But again this is a confusion with our words. The natal man who can't procreate in the normal fashion is much as the natal women who can't procerate in the normal way. They still have the biological propensity to do so. Trans men are biologically female but gender identity male. It's two sided different definitions of the same word”

-Same with this one. I struggle to come up with a good rebuttal. Though I usually see the argument continue on as….
-This is transphobic or something.
-That hurts my feelings.
-Why do men need to have the biological propensity to sire children to be men?
-Banned, blocked, reported. 😱💩

“How common is this? Really? Considering the money being spent on transitioning children and trans rights I feel like we should do these chromosome test for anyone who requests it. If the genuinely have the wrong chromosomes then they really are intersex and should be able to choose any gender correcting surgery they want and have access to counselling and support services. Perhaps our laws can allow intersex with proof into our women's rights 🤷‍♀️

-Some people have the wrong chromosomes and have no side effects and go on to give birth/sire children. And if that is the case how do we define men and women? There is no way to define them by body parts, chromosomes or otherwise. It is only based on gender expression and social constructs.

I argue for the safeguarding of the many we have to accept this may happen. I actually used to have a lesbian friend who looked like a man and she would always ask a friend to go with her to the toilet as she was challenged often. I haven't asked her opinion but I doubt she's give away her female rights to stop people challenging her.

-You win this time! shakes fist

Straw man says dogs/cat don't consent to being spayed etc but we know it is best for them not to have repeated pregnancies many some dogs/cats want to be a parent animal? We with the power make these decisions for them there. It's no different if it's a trans animal either we accept we don't know what's best for them or we accept we do.

-But animals don’t commit suicide because they are trans…? 😆🫣 I got nothing here. lulz

Caster Semenya - Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_Semenya#:~:text=Semenya%20is%20an%20intersex%20woman,to%20competition%20the%20following%20year.

OP posts:
PurpleBugz · 30/04/2023 16:17

TerfLady · 30/04/2023 15:29

@PurpleBugz can you tell I have lots of practice making these points as an ex TRA? 😂

What was it that changed your mind?

What arguments or comments did people make that got through?

TerfLady · 30/04/2023 16:18

PurpleBugz · 30/04/2023 15:40

@terflady

Re third spaces. Maybe small businesses should only have the third space? Then it's not outing.

If all toilets were single cubicles large enough and with the right equipment for disabled people no one would be outed. And there would be better access to disabled facilities to boot.

Many mothers of small children would appreciate use of disabled sized cubicles as we can bring in our buggy.

On the subject of adult transition era who pass I think we have to accept it's a very small minority. And I don't see how their discomfort is any worse than natal men/women who look like the other sex using single sex facilities. Let them use our bathrooms. But when it comes to prisons, sports, workplaces etc where the identities of the people are known in law they should be their natal sex for the presentation of the rights of people protected by the equality act.

I think the financial lay out to create third spaces could have been covered by the money spent attacking women's rights. There could be grants for small businesses etc

@PurpleBugz

Bravo! I love all of your answers. I would love to challenge you later on but now I must go feed my family. 🤪

OP posts:
JussathoB · 30/04/2023 16:32

PurpleBugz · 30/04/2023 14:22

@TerfLady
Not all women have xx chromosomes.
Woman as a biological sex class do. Women as a social construct don't have to be xx
The rest of the Not all not all women statements are true.

And then vice versa with men:
Same answer in reverse. All the not all men statement's are true except the xy. I would counter that not all men can get erections and ejaculate. Is being a man dependent on this ability? Is it based on his physical characteristics or career choices and such? No it's based on his chromosomes

And yet again argued backwards for male side:
-Not all men are born male.
-Some men can get pregnant.
-Some men can menstruate.
-Some men don’t have a deep voice.
-Some men are short.
-Some men have a uterus/ovaries/breasts/a vagina (or a mix of organs.)
Only if we accept cis men and trans men into the same category. So true if we are talking gender identity but not true if we go by chromosomes

-Some people are intersex.
-Some natal men look very feminine female passing.
-Some natal women look very masculine.
Intersex is the exception that proves the rule? I think not looking or acting natal male/female is very different to being truly intersex with where their chromosomes and reproductive organs and genitalia don't fit the male/female binary. I'm sure this phenomenon happens in other species? I know it's ridiculous to say it but should be we transitioning animals who display the wrong characteristics of their sex? A female sheep rejects her lamb- is that really a ram in the sheep's body?

Hi I probably shouldn’t post because I’m not managing to keep up with the debate here. However I have a difficulty with the phrases ‘some men can get pregnant’ and ‘some men can menstruate’. I don’t want to offend anyone but my reactions to that are ‘no they can’t’ and ‘this is nonsense’.
in order to get pregnant you have to have a functioning female biology. So the only ‘men’ who can get pregnant would be a trans man, so you would have to be convinced that trans men are men, but there are a lot of people who do not accept this.

BonfireLady · 30/04/2023 16:39

@PurpleBugz re my name 😂😂😂
As an opionated woman, I have no doubt I would have been declared a witch. The only doubt I'd have is whether it was the witchcraft or heresy that got me burned first - not sure I'd be too bothered to unpick it whilst I was burning on the pyre though 😂🧙‍♀️
(I too love history BTW)

I'm loving the interaction between you and @TerfLady . I have no intention of trying to join in as my head can't cope but it's fascinating to see it unfolding. The icing on the cake for me would be if it turned out you too were a previous TRA @PurpleBugz

JanesLittleGirl · 30/04/2023 16:39

@TerfLady

"“Is this not already done where it's relevant? Such as boxing? There is nothing wrong with setting up such sporting categories and having them gender inclusive- as long as we keep the categories male and female in the existing leagues.”
-I actually can’t think of a good argument against this. Good job!"

This one is a really bad idea. Putting together a similar weight and height male and female in a boxing ring would be a blood bath. The superior reach, strength and arm speed of the male would give a massive advantage which, combined with the thinner, lower density bones of the female, could result in serious injury to her.

TerfLady · 30/04/2023 16:57

PurpleBugz · 30/04/2023 16:17

What was it that changed your mind?

What arguments or comments did people make that got through?

Oh dear. That is a long one. It was a few things, and not exactly one point though some of it is subjective I suppose.

First off a lot of TRA’s are very liberal and often also preach the concept of cultural appropriation. I am an animist as I mentioned previously and believe the earth has a spirit so I tend to go to a lot of pagan/witchy/native american shops for supplies.

And I once got a very good telling off for appropriating culture for buying things like sage, or wearing certain outfits. It didn’t sit right with me but I was afraid of that making me a terrible privileged racist white woman if I didn’t accept it unquestionably.

I went to my usual shop that is own by a card holding Cherokee family that I am friends with.
I decided to skip the some items that I was told by redditors that is now banned for us white pepper because otherwise we are stealing native american culture. My friend noticed I was buying less things than usual and commented on it. I nervously explained to her my concerns.

She said this
“Things are not that black and white. First who are these people on reddit? Are they white? Do they speak on our behalf? We native americans do not all think the same. Second many of us make our living off of these shops that sell handmade items that are symbolic of our culture. If all white people stopped buying it then we would go out of business and lose our primary source of income. In that respect many of us are harmed. I’m that way their attitudes are harming us. In Hawaii many have similar shops and tourist spots based on their culture. Should they suffer for this utopian view point?”

I agreed with her but hate to admit I still caved to the internet’s demands and slowly stopped shopping there for years. But her words always stuck with me.

There was also the time I started hanging out with some trans and nonbinary people. I noticed the nonbinary people often expressed very similar to their birth sex. I had a friend who was a transwoman but she had a very subtly patronizing way of speaking to me that I just can’t express in words. Nothing she said on paper was wrong in any way. Really it was just a feeling of I am being honest. Actually that was the problem. She always said all the right things. The only word that describes it was she was being insincere and I could sense that about her. We would invite her to girls night outs for drinks and the girls and I would talk about things like sex and periods and pregnancy and we could sense that she was very uncomfortable with these conversations or would try to join in as a weird sort of third wheel or talk about her boobs but it was awkward. We all felt it. So we eventually started avoiding the topics for her sake and the group slowly fell apart. There was also the frustrating policing of topics and language which we all put up with it but I think I started to resent it a little bit. Everything was not about us girls having girl fun anymore. It slowly shifted to lgbt+ topics and this persons feelings. There was a quiet shift and the group eventually fell apart.

When I got married she started talking down to me and when I was pregnant she stopped talking to me without explanation. I was told that I should accept the fact that my pregnancy made her uncomfortable and simply move on.

Then I had midwives call me a birthing person and ask for my pronouns and I actually hated it. I didn’t just hate it I LOATHED IT.

I had a friend ask me if I was going to assign my child female at birth like one of those lame straight cis white people? Or do the right thing and make her a theyby? A theyby is a gender neutral baby if you didn’t know. This hit me really hard because now it’s not about me or other adults anymore about my kid.

During my pregnancy I discovered that Chloe Cole existed. And for years my friends were telling me that minors weren’t being medically transitioned. I realized I was not only lied to but when I raised the issue they got angry at me and started justifying it which frustrated me.

I distance myself from them after that. I was never in support of medical transition of children. I was fine with puberty blockers only because at the time I thought they were harmless. I now know that is also incorrect. But never okay with cross sex hormones or surgeries.

With Chloe Cole everything really started to fall apart for me I think because I knew I had been lied to and that opened the gate up to “Well if they lied about that what else was I lied about too?”

Then I found out my niece was being bullied for being half mexican half white. Not not for her mexican side she was bullied for her white side and her very white appearance. She’s blonde and blue eyed you see. She was told she could not wear a sumbrero for her birthday because she was stealing mexican culture. She was being harassed by a mexican boy. She told him to stop and he said “What are you going to do? Steal my rights white girl?” right in front of the teachers parents and me. Everyone was physically uncomfortable and didn’t want to say anything. We just grabbed her hand and walked away. Her mother had a talk with the school later about it. There was also an incident where the kids told her if she holds a quinceanera they would not attend because she is too white and that seemed to break her and she stopped speaking spanish or bringing up her heritage because of it. It stayed with me.

I started learning about how detransitioners and how they are harassed by TRA’s which confused me. Why are they so furious about them tra sing back? If they just were mistaken about their gender and going back to the correct one why is that so bad? Why do they have to put a positive spin on it all? Why do they have to creep in the shadows? Don’t they share the same goal of living their truth and being who they really are? Unless it was never really about that…

Then the trans kids rights stuff really took off and the weird drag queen stuff. And after that I was really done. Blaire White, Buck Angel and amala ekpunobi helped me come to terms with my feelings I think. I no longer beat myself up for being an evil Terf. 😅 But I did for about a year. It was embarrassing and shameful to me.

OP posts:
TheSingingBean · 30/04/2023 17:14

Wow, TerfLady, that's an extraordinary journey you've been on.

Thanks for taking the time to share it, very illuminating.

WarriorN · 30/04/2023 17:19

I fling the word sexist in whenever I can

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 30/04/2023 17:42

That was very interesting, @TerfLady . Thanks for sharing.

Considering the money being spent on transitioning children and trans rights I feel like we should do these chromosome test for anyone who requests it.

The Tavistock used to test everyone referred to them. They stopped after finding the rate and range of chromosomal anomalies was exactly the same (absolutely minute) as in the general population.

TerfLady · 30/04/2023 17:47

TheSingingBean · 30/04/2023 17:14

Wow, TerfLady, that's an extraordinary journey you've been on.

Thanks for taking the time to share it, very illuminating.

Thank you. If I am being honest I still don’t have a set opinion about the race stuff. I just know that I’ve learned along the way the things aren’t necessarily as easy or straight forward as I was convinced. I don’t know what the answer is there. Or anything really anymore to be honest. But I’m certainly a lot more cautious about people who are so certain of themselves yet don’t listen and don’t give an opportunity to have their minds changed.

OP posts:
PurpleBugz · 30/04/2023 18:15

BonfireLady · 30/04/2023 16:39

@PurpleBugz re my name 😂😂😂
As an opionated woman, I have no doubt I would have been declared a witch. The only doubt I'd have is whether it was the witchcraft or heresy that got me burned first - not sure I'd be too bothered to unpick it whilst I was burning on the pyre though 😂🧙‍♀️
(I too love history BTW)

I'm loving the interaction between you and @TerfLady . I have no intention of trying to join in as my head can't cope but it's fascinating to see it unfolding. The icing on the cake for me would be if it turned out you too were a previous TRA @PurpleBugz

Haha. No I wasn't fully TRA I just was ignorant and not engaging in what's happening as I did not know how much it really affected me as a woman. I would have sided with the TRA on the information widely available in media i access properganda

I only became aware of a problem when I decided as a Bi woman I'm done with men and going to look to date a woman. And experienced lesbian dating site.

Still didn't know what this was what to do or where to look I just gave up dating.

It was jk rolling who got through the propaganda to me. Following her led me to having subtle discussions with other women I trust and someone told me to come to Mumsnet. (Who ever you are in here I bet you know who I am in real life by how I write I love you loads!)

Mumsnet showed me how much it affects children. Honestly once my eyes opened and I decided just to check what my daughter's school has as their equality policy and what they teach in PSHE I was more scared of this movement than I had been when it was just my dating experience. It's everywhere and people are just ignorant of what is happening/what it means

PurpleBugz · 30/04/2023 18:25

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 30/04/2023 17:42

That was very interesting, @TerfLady . Thanks for sharing.

Considering the money being spent on transitioning children and trans rights I feel like we should do these chromosome test for anyone who requests it.

The Tavistock used to test everyone referred to them. They stopped after finding the rate and range of chromosomal anomalies was exactly the same (absolutely minute) as in the general population.

Thank you for the information! Do you know the actual proportion or can link it? I will go looking myself later if not no worries.

PurpleBugz · 30/04/2023 18:36

@TerfLady

Thank you very much for sharing your story.

Would you agree you feel as I do? I was uncomfortable with certain things but not really going to invest in it until I realised this directly affects my children and other children I know and care about.

I don't know maybe part of being a woman is that we are more accommodating and more prepared to be a bit uncomfortable for the greater good of everyone. So we don't wise up to this issue automatically when it brushes up to us in life we are used to feeling a bit uncomfortable it's not new. But come for our kids? Women generally are fiercely protective of their kids and will be even at their own detriment.

TerfLady · 30/04/2023 18:44

PurpleBugz · 30/04/2023 18:36

@TerfLady

Thank you very much for sharing your story.

Would you agree you feel as I do? I was uncomfortable with certain things but not really going to invest in it until I realised this directly affects my children and other children I know and care about.

I don't know maybe part of being a woman is that we are more accommodating and more prepared to be a bit uncomfortable for the greater good of everyone. So we don't wise up to this issue automatically when it brushes up to us in life we are used to feeling a bit uncomfortable it's not new. But come for our kids? Women generally are fiercely protective of their kids and will be even at their own detriment.

Yes I am guilty as charged. I admit I think there was a part of me that thought it was none of my business. It made me uncomfortable to get too involved. I thought “What is the harm? They aren’t hurting anyone!” But if they aren’t hurting anyone then they certainly are now. Because like you said. They are quite literally coming for our children and gaslighting us about it.

OP posts:
TerfLady · 30/04/2023 18:54

PurpleBugz · 30/04/2023 18:25

Thank you for the information! Do you know the actual proportion or can link it? I will go looking myself later if not no worries.

That is actually really good information. I remember chromosomes were a really big conversation. I wonder if they have gone quiet about it now that that is out?

OP posts:
TerfLady · 30/04/2023 19:00

JanesLittleGirl · 30/04/2023 16:39

@TerfLady

"“Is this not already done where it's relevant? Such as boxing? There is nothing wrong with setting up such sporting categories and having them gender inclusive- as long as we keep the categories male and female in the existing leagues.”
-I actually can’t think of a good argument against this. Good job!"

This one is a really bad idea. Putting together a similar weight and height male and female in a boxing ring would be a blood bath. The superior reach, strength and arm speed of the male would give a massive advantage which, combined with the thinner, lower density bones of the female, could result in serious injury to her.

Oh I agree. I just couldn’t think of a steel man rebuttal at the time for this! But yes sports definitely need to be separated by sex. For the exceptions where everyone agrees to mix sex by height and weight well I would say the women probably don’t have much in it for them but I imagine they are aware of the risks. Or I hope. I’m not very into sports so I’m not terribly informed honestly. 🤔

Any professional athletes are welcome to chime in.

OP posts:
PurpleBugz · 30/04/2023 19:08

I think this board is amazing. This Steelman exercise has been good fun for me today. I cannot thank other poster's enough for what you are doing all the time. And some have been doing this for years. I find it hard to process how this has been argued over and over around and around for years. And you still are here doing it. You are amazing people. You are an amazing place to learn. Such an important resource. The amount of evidence gathered here is brilliant for helping people like me understand.

Thank you thank you thank you

TerfLady · 30/04/2023 19:13

JussathoB · 30/04/2023 16:32

Hi I probably shouldn’t post because I’m not managing to keep up with the debate here. However I have a difficulty with the phrases ‘some men can get pregnant’ and ‘some men can menstruate’. I don’t want to offend anyone but my reactions to that are ‘no they can’t’ and ‘this is nonsense’.
in order to get pregnant you have to have a functioning female biology. So the only ‘men’ who can get pregnant would be a trans man, so you would have to be convinced that trans men are men, but there are a lot of people who do not accept this.

I’m not at all offended. We are doing steelman exercises so we can make our gender critical arguments stronger. I was just using common arguments that TRA’s use online to try to push their agenda so gender critical women can rebuttal more easily. I don’t actually believe that men can get pregnant. 😁

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