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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Genuinely willing to discuss in good faith

1000 replies

beachcitygirl · 27/04/2023 17:40

Hello.

This is a thread for those who are uncomfortable with black and white and less than civil discourse around self id.

I welcome those with different views but I don't on this thread welcome those who only want to state their firm settled opinion without nuance or discussion that self id is absolutely wrong.

It's my view that there is no point in discussion if mind firmly made up.
I'll respect your legal right to that view but there's not much point chatting about it and pissing each other off.

There are plenty threads of gc women hoping to create more gc women and that's fine.

I'd like this to be a different space. A place for anyone with genuine questions, discussion points and where we all try to be civil and attempt to answer each other in good faith. Anyone who is unsure, let's talk:

My views are that trans women should be treated in every aspect as women and they are our natural allies against misogyny and the patriarchy and that women are more than their biology.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
34
Hagosaurus · 28/04/2023 07:07

Hmm, I’d be very careful about getting into a DM conversation with OP!

Hepwo · 28/04/2023 07:20

A middle of the night flounce.

What a lot of drama.

JacquelinePot · 28/04/2023 07:23

NickCaveisonMN · 28/04/2023 04:49

And men pretending to be women are not a vulnerable minority for God's sake

Agreed! It absolutely boggles my mind when people trot this one out.

I think that they must think so poorly of women that any man who would lower himself to our level that he is one must be an absolutely tragic case. The poor dear must be in a terrible way and therefore we should make his life easier by giving him whatever he wants.

Op, nice good faith you have there 🙄

xabia · 28/04/2023 07:28

I think it's obvious that the OP is not a woman.

Hepwo · 28/04/2023 07:34

they are our natural allies against misogyny and the patriarchy

OP made this claim in the opening post.

This is often said but I struggle to see how. I would like an example of when this has happened?

PurpleBugz · 28/04/2023 07:41

@Whyjustwhy123

Can I ask what the strike through words means? The ones crossed out. I see it frequently and can't work out if it's sarcasm or something as it's not really sarcasm is it? Sorry I'm autistic and decided to ask the next person I see do it and that was you 😁

Thumpsquids · 28/04/2023 07:45

This is a sad, if fascinating, thread. I've learned that terms such as 'good faith,' much like 'woman' and 'female,' are being redefined, or there's an attempt to do so. I hope this drive doesn't succeed.

Wellies54 · 28/04/2023 07:52

Hepwo · 28/04/2023 07:34

they are our natural allies against misogyny and the patriarchy

OP made this claim in the opening post.

This is often said but I struggle to see how. I would like an example of when this has happened?

Exactly! I know some lovely men, DH included, who are women's allies against misogyny. I'm not sure why a man would need to pretend to be a woman in order to be 'an ally' . In fact, if you imagine going around wearing a blindfold to show that you're an ally of the visually impaired, it's obvious how ridiculous this notion is!

And I have to say it loud and clear; womanhood is a biological reality which exists across time and space and not a concept based on outdated cultural stereotypes!

RedToothBrush · 28/04/2023 08:10

Two things.

First we have the always creepy "my DMs are open" line.

Strangely that ONLY EVER pops up on 'good faith' threads.

Secondly
"Making a society on a part of a body is nonsense"

Actually society is based on the reproductive abilities of men and women. If it wasn't based on our sex parts we would fail to reproduce. Each body plays a unique roll in the continuation of our species. If we start cutting off parts we reduce our ability to reproduce naturally and that has massive implications for society. You then have the 'those who can afford to reproduce' and 'those who can not afford to reproduce'. And even with all our science available, those parts of the body still are essential to our reproduction.

I actually feel that line says a lot about the level of thinking that goes into this ideology. It would fail GCSE biology.

We may not like our sex, but our society depends on those parts of our body to continue.

RedToothBrush · 28/04/2023 08:11

Hagosaurus · 28/04/2023 07:07

Hmm, I’d be very careful about getting into a DM conversation with OP!

Absolutely. Every time someone does that, there are warnings about the implications for good reason.

It's really really creepy and sinister.

Whyjustwhy123 · 28/04/2023 08:17

@PurpleBugz no worries in asking!

It is sarcasm I guess but I think it’s used in a more complex way (and probably if I’m honest passive aggressive way).

So in my example I was giving another meaning in the point I was making in that I was suggesting that the OP did not like the way us women on this bored were not acting very lady like. With the irony that the OP is suggesting the flaw in the GC movement is that we are supporting traditional gender roles.

Whyjustwhy123 · 28/04/2023 08:18

So it’s just a lazy way of making a point Grin

thirdfiddle · 28/04/2023 08:31

Oh what a disappointment. Why on earth would anyone want to DM you when all you've done is throw insults? This is a chat board, for discussing things. You professed willing to discuss albeit rather rudely, some of us showed some initial patience to your tone and asked questions, now you're refusing to answer them. I for one am concluding that is because you don't have answers.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 28/04/2023 08:33

Honestly OP - you really have outed yourself as a bit of a silly billy. Your complete failure to engage, slinging insults around from the outset with incoherent, contradictory posts based on what some mystical individual taught you along with an early hours flounce (plus the creepy DM invitation).

However, you have given posters on here an opportunity to share some important coherent arguments that sadly you were incapable of engaging with and I've no doubt that new recipes will be tried today. Hopefully, once you've reflected, you might consider why there are no arguments in favour of changing the sex class of women to include men and why threads like yours repeatedly reach the same conclusions with wild cries of bigotry and phobia in the absence of coherent debate. As MNHQ are fond of saying - go well.

Pluvia · 28/04/2023 08:34

Is anyone keeping a count of the number of 'I'm open to discussion - but you can just fuck off if you ask difficult questions and don't instantly accept I'm right and you're wrong' threads?

As a general rule of thumb I assume that anyone with 'girl' in their moniker is a man.

lechiffre55 · 28/04/2023 08:37

These threads always end the same way too.
I came here to tell you all off, some people disagreed with me and that makes them bigots, I'm the victim, you're all assholes.

Punxsutawney Phil has returned to his cosy burrow, and is now gently snoozing away. We await until he wakes up tomorrow, emerges, and we go through the whole thing all over again.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 28/04/2023 08:43

I do hope that MNHQ ignore the no doubt repeated demands to delete this thread - it's a perfect example of the trans activist approach to respectful debate.

countrypunk · 28/04/2023 08:50

I'm really glad you started this thread OP, because there have been some excellent responses from people who recognise reality, biology and the true nature of misogyny. Mumsnet can be such a brilliant feminist resource. Thank you to everyone who posts on these threads - I've learnt a lot from you all and it's so heartening to know I'm not alone in my feelings.

lechiffre55 · 28/04/2023 08:50

MrsOvertonsWindow · 28/04/2023 08:43

I do hope that MNHQ ignore the no doubt repeated demands to delete this thread - it's a perfect example of the trans activist approach to respectful debate.

Me too.
It's like a record of how these threads work. I'm a big fan of preserving things. I wish the comment that called ( me? ) a rat hadn't been deleted. It's a record of how the conversation went.
Maybe just locking a thread against new replies would be a better way to deal with this. At least then we have a record of it.

ArabeIIaScott · 28/04/2023 08:52

lechiffre, I made a screenshot of that post. If you want it I can dm it to you.

I cannot and will not engage with anyone using words like 'rat' about other human beings. This is a bit of a sore point for me - maybe I overreact to it, but dehumanisation is the start of very bad things, historically speaking and it produces a very strong response in me. I'm sorry you were on the receiving end of it.

ArabeIIaScott · 28/04/2023 08:55

Whyjustwhy123 · 28/04/2023 08:17

@PurpleBugz no worries in asking!

It is sarcasm I guess but I think it’s used in a more complex way (and probably if I’m honest passive aggressive way).

So in my example I was giving another meaning in the point I was making in that I was suggesting that the OP did not like the way us women on this bored were not acting very lady like. With the irony that the OP is suggesting the flaw in the GC movement is that we are supporting traditional gender roles.

I suppose it can be used in different ways. It's saying 'this is what is really going through my head but here is the (non scored out) polite public thing I will actually say'.

NotHavingIt · 28/04/2023 08:58

I thought the first few questions around " what is a woman" were important and actually get to the heart of this issue. How can you talk about women and " being treated as a woman" when you cannot even define what you mean by a woman. It is not a trick question.

To be then told this is a " dog whistle" is very disappointing - but also not really that surprising. It is always the way. We are supposed to rely on intangible, undefinable concepts and just accept them as articles of faith and without question.

PurpleBugz · 28/04/2023 09:00

@Whyjustwhy123
@ArabeIIaScott

Many thanks!

Fukuraptor · 28/04/2023 09:03

Yes Arabella, I feel the same way about dehumanising language. It doesn't always make me popular to point it out (as a Labour member this sometimes means defending Conservatives from such language) but it feels so important. Thanks for pointing it out.

We can disagree strongly with other people, without removing their humanity and making them acceptable targets.

Helleofabore · 28/04/2023 09:07

beachcitygirl · 28/04/2023 04:10

@Helleofabore almost every single regular poster on here has made some stereotypical comment re sex/gender eg cocks in frocks.
"Blokes" "men" not real, fetishists etc etc

There are a few people that seem to genuinely want to chat. Thank you for that. My DM's are open.

There's just too many bigots and rude people and some downright idiots on this board.

And I'm not fighting through screeds of bigotry &'transphobia and recipes and mocking and accusations of being a man or being a brand new member.

Area 51 levels of tinfoil hats on this board. I've been around for years. Even argued with some of you previously or agreed about other things.

I can't abide the abuse towards a vulnerable minority. It's sickening.

I'll leave you to your echo chamber of bigotry & stupidity and your cherry cake teenage insults.

Anyone wants to chat my DM's are open.

I'll still be on the other boards i frequent - best regards.

Beach

Geez.

So after all that, this is what you did? This is the very definition of stereotypical poster who believes they are morally superior yet when pointed out how close their own beliefs mirror the nasty posters flounces.

And you wondered why posters were reluctant to engage without an proper definition.

The thing is, you have had lots of people now point out that whoever explained second wave feminism to you have you a very fucked up misinterpreted explanation. And I suspect you were headed towards how you believe we are bioessentialists or something.

No.

Sexist (biodeterminist): I am a woman therefore I do the dishes.

Gender ideology: I do the dishes therefore I am a woman.

Feminist: Anyone can do the dishes, man or woman!

Or was it the sports question? Because that is the quickest way to the core of your arguments last night. I and others had asked about sport upthread but I suspect it got lost.

Sport is an excellent entry point. Because the categories in sport have all been set up to protect the competitiveness of the category. That is age, impairment, and sex. And experience too.

No other group has been asked to allow people who don’t fit that category into their competitions. Just women and girls. Women and girls have been asked to accept males with their testosterone puberty benefits to compete.

Some people who fully support males being considered ‘women’ in all aspects, believe that a male person who has shaped their body should access women’s sport as a reward. That by not pushing their body to be the fittest needed for their sport but shaped it for cosmetic appearance and removing testosterone, their decisions to limit their performance should be rewarded while female sportspeople have to train and remain dedicated to achieve similar levels of output.

As the saying goes, if you cannot recognise that a rider on an electric assisted bicycle has advantage despite not winning the Tour de France, you have no understanding of sport or competition.

So, I guess there were too many questions asked that would have exposed the gaping holes in the foundations of thought that underpin your beliefs here. Hence you followed the script of all that have been before. Almost boiler plate replica.

‘I am here in good faith’

’You are all transphobes, lack the wonderful insight I have and you have no in depth / convincing arguments and your words are mean.’

’why are you all piling in on me! This is what I meant! No I ‘am’ good faith! I am!’

After throwing out some clearly wrong statements about what supposedly feminists believe and being shown up for having no well founded argument, just emotional manipulation. Just like all the rest.

‘you are all so hateful, my DMs are open, I cannot have this conversation here where great be holes are exposed. I am leaving you with some more insults (as of enough haven’t been flung already) and you have proved my point’

I am not much of a writer (I am no Nick Cave), but this is the script we see weekly, or at least fortnightly. This thread went as we all expected.

Why?

Because the OP never intended this thread to be a good faith thread. They brought shaming elements in right in the very first post. They came from shaming us all directly from another thread.

It was a dishonesty to say it was ever good faith.

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