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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Genuinely willing to discuss in good faith

1000 replies

beachcitygirl · 27/04/2023 17:40

Hello.

This is a thread for those who are uncomfortable with black and white and less than civil discourse around self id.

I welcome those with different views but I don't on this thread welcome those who only want to state their firm settled opinion without nuance or discussion that self id is absolutely wrong.

It's my view that there is no point in discussion if mind firmly made up.
I'll respect your legal right to that view but there's not much point chatting about it and pissing each other off.

There are plenty threads of gc women hoping to create more gc women and that's fine.

I'd like this to be a different space. A place for anyone with genuine questions, discussion points and where we all try to be civil and attempt to answer each other in good faith. Anyone who is unsure, let's talk:

My views are that trans women should be treated in every aspect as women and they are our natural allies against misogyny and the patriarchy and that women are more than their biology.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
34
Vintagecreamandcottagepie · 27/04/2023 23:49

We have periods, have suffered harassment and abuse, give birth, do most of the child rearing etc etc. We are vulnerable against men.
Those experiences are real. Our chromosome makeup is real. Science is real. You cannot silence us.

Whether we wear dresses or trousers, enjoy watching soaps or football, etc etc, we. Are. Still. Women.

How can you deny that? Do you?

Datun · 27/04/2023 23:58

It is a weird version of feminism that recognises gender as detrimental and oppressive and yet simultaneously is happy to serve up vulnerable women who are toileting, or adjusting their hijab, recovering from rape, need intimate care, or unable to escape, in order to validate men celebrating gender stereotyping!!

Helleofabore · 28/04/2023 00:01

Datun · 27/04/2023 23:58

It is a weird version of feminism that recognises gender as detrimental and oppressive and yet simultaneously is happy to serve up vulnerable women who are toileting, or adjusting their hijab, recovering from rape, need intimate care, or unable to escape, in order to validate men celebrating gender stereotyping!!

Isn’t it just?

NickCaveisonMN · 28/04/2023 00:06

Almost as if it's memisism.

Gosh that's impossible to say!

NickCaveisonMN · 28/04/2023 00:06

Meminisism? Is that better

So can't say it mind!

Hepwo · 28/04/2023 00:20

Making a society on a part of a body is nonsense

Oh well. It's the sort of thing a student ally would write.

Fukuraptor · 28/04/2023 00:23

The gender boxes suck. And though they suck worse for women, men are harmed by the man box too. I understand that desire to escape the stereotypes and expectations.

The problem is that letting some people switch boxes doesn't solve the problem and creates a whole heap of new ones.

Even if you could get society to pretend it was sex blind (which is impossible) you'd end up with a society where some people don't have their careers impacted by pregnancy, some people commit almost all the sexual assault, some people win all the medals. The sexism would still be there but we'd lose the language to talk about it and try to redress it.

Sex matters in situations where our sexed bodies are important - healthcare, sports, intimate spaces.

You are absolutely right that it doesn't need to dictate our interests, fashion, careers, personalities, hairstyles etc.

Why would you order the physical stuff like sports/prisons/hospital care based on gender rather than sex? If sex doesn't matter, why split men/women at all?

Would you split them based on religion? On star sign? By Hogwarts House? I'm assuming not because it isn't salient (though now wondering if Glasgow prisons separate prisoners by football teams). Well what aspects of the gender box of women are salient to those things either?

I don't wear make up, dresses, skirts, heels, handbags. I've never paid for a manicure, pedicure or other beauty treatment. I've not been to a spa day. Does that make me less a woman than those who do? Am I stunning and brave for breaking out of the gender box?

Anyway that was my response to your details about what a woman is. I'm with you on rigid gender stereotypes being unfair, but that's why I don't think it makes sense to built society upon them or to pretend that sex isn't real.

The questions that came to mind when I was reading through your thread were:

Do you understand that whilst trans adults may have experienced cross sex identification as children, that this phenomena isn't unique to trans people? That lots of children and adolescents have that experience and go on to be comfortable with their sex as adults. Not all of them but most of them. It's actually a better predictor of being gay than trans. And that was before the rapid increase in trans-identifying young people.

I'm deeply concerned that as a society we're telling these kids that having those feelings means they are trans and steering them down a path of permanent body modification and the loss of their fertility and sexual function before they are fully mature.

Even for the kids that genuinely would grow up to be trans adults, I'm deeply concerned that far from helping them, the treatments they are being offered are experimental and have serious effects on their long term health. First do no harm.

I think one of the big things that moved me from "this doesn't make any sense to me personally but I should be kind" to strongly GC was realising from learning more about the history of sex reassignment and listening to detransistioners, that the medical professionals that I had vaguely assumed knew what they were doing, in fact do not know what they are doing.

There is a massive black hole of where you'd expect scientific research, clinical evidence, and ethics committees would sit. The gender psychologists are ignoring other mental health concerns and passing the buck to endocrinologists and surgeons who are not taking responsibility for the clinical consequences of their actions and no one seems to be looking after the actual physical and mental health of trans identifying people. It is a medical scandal and trans people are being badly served by organisations who claim to care about them from Stonewall and the NHS down.

Then you have the issue of people simultaneously claiming trans is not something that needs to be diagnosed by anyone but the individual AND also that it needs immediate affirming healthcare on the NHS.

Helleofabore · 28/04/2023 00:35

beachcitygirl · 27/04/2023 22:32

@WeeBisom

I absolutely will answer but in short (very short) & then I'm off for the evening

Womanhood is a social construct. So anyone in society that feels that constraint or feels that they don't fit in the box that society has placed upon them by calling them boys or girls or men or women is welcome to the word. That's what a woman is.
Anyone who says they are a woman is.
And yes I would like to remove any distinction between the sexes. It's never done females any good.

Gender is man made for sure. So is a table, I still ate my dinner off mine an hour ago. It's still real and definable and impossible to deny imho.

Biological sex is real but all the stuff that's piled on re restrictions, femininity, masculinity, and so on is a mistaken and restrictive way to build society. Places people with rules and restrictions and there are punishments for stepping outside the rules.

Making a society on a part of a body is nonsense.

We could just as easily be making our society about another bodily part. Height for example. It's just as random (and wrong)

There are of course mountains to climb to move away from hegemonic masculinity but recognising that some
Already have is a good start.

I also believe we should not belittle minorities in word or deed.

Being a woman is not anything more than having a female body. You admit that sexed bodies are real. That ‘femininity’ and ‘masculinity’ you talk about is purely stereotypes.

You are here telling us now in two posts that you find stereotypes restrictive and controlling. No argument here! I doubt you will find any regular poster thinking stereotypes are something to embrace.

And yet, who is trying to build society on body parts?

Are we supposed to be building society on people? On individual people contributing to the collective society?

Sure, it takes two types of bodies to add to society. But apart from that, what role that is specific to that body does each sex contribute?

The way to deconstruct stereotypes is not through allowing male people to be treated as female people in every aspect! There are times when because of the female body, women have different needs.

Health care is one obvious one. Needs for single sex spaces is another. Sports is another obvious one.

Why is it acceptable to you that a male who has transitioned just 3 months before, is appointed to become a women’s officer at a university or in a political party? Why is that acceptable representation for ensuring that female people’s needs are considered fully in policy decisions? And I am including all female bodies people regardless of whether they call themselves a woman.

That is called continuing male oppression and patriarchy right there.

SpicyMoth · 28/04/2023 00:38

"Making a society on a part of a body is nonsense"

Just had another thought OP, but why are you viewing it as making a society based on "A body part" ?
Do you think male bodies and female bodies are different in any way? Do you not think there's a severe strength disparity between males and females?
Do you not think female bodies are sexualised & objectified in ways male bodies just.. aren't?

Genuinely, have you ever been punched at full force by a male vs by a female?

This is the one thing I can never wrap my head around, would love for you to reply back to tomorrow if you have time & see this OP.

I went to a school briefly that had a couple special needs kids in who liked to hit, in the time I was there I was punched in the stomach by a boy, and by a girl, at different instances. Both at full force.

Only one of those instances had me doubled over and vomiting with tears streaming down my face whilst trying to make a mad dash to the toilets.
It was not the girl.

OneMorePlant · 28/04/2023 01:52

JanesLittleGirl · 27/04/2023 23:19

This thread has a strong hint of cake about it. Is it because the OP is trying to have their cake and eat it!

It's because the cake is a lie.

PorcelinaV · 28/04/2023 03:39

"Anyone who says they are a woman is."

So you don't even need to identify as a woman? You just need to say it? A convicted rapist just needs to make the claim?

"And yes I would like to remove any distinction between the sexes. It's never done females any good."

So you're against cross-sex hormones and trans surgery then?

Because they depend on a difference between the sexes, and trying to be more like the other sex.

But you don't want to recognise a distinction? So that's the end of giving medical treatment to trans people?

PorcelinaV · 28/04/2023 04:01

And without a distinction between the sexes, just have all sports to be mixed? And all prisons to be mixed?

If that's the kind of thing you want, it's maybe more extreme than trans-activism.

beachcitygirl · 28/04/2023 04:10

@Helleofabore almost every single regular poster on here has made some stereotypical comment re sex/gender eg cocks in frocks.
"Blokes" "men" not real, fetishists etc etc

There are a few people that seem to genuinely want to chat. Thank you for that. My DM's are open.

There's just too many bigots and rude people and some downright idiots on this board.

And I'm not fighting through screeds of bigotry &'transphobia and recipes and mocking and accusations of being a man or being a brand new member.

Area 51 levels of tinfoil hats on this board. I've been around for years. Even argued with some of you previously or agreed about other things.

I can't abide the abuse towards a vulnerable minority. It's sickening.

I'll leave you to your echo chamber of bigotry & stupidity and your cherry cake teenage insults.

Anyone wants to chat my DM's are open.

I'll still be on the other boards i frequent - best regards.

Beach

OP posts:
OneMorePlant · 28/04/2023 04:23

beachcitygirl · 28/04/2023 04:10

@Helleofabore almost every single regular poster on here has made some stereotypical comment re sex/gender eg cocks in frocks.
"Blokes" "men" not real, fetishists etc etc

There are a few people that seem to genuinely want to chat. Thank you for that. My DM's are open.

There's just too many bigots and rude people and some downright idiots on this board.

And I'm not fighting through screeds of bigotry &'transphobia and recipes and mocking and accusations of being a man or being a brand new member.

Area 51 levels of tinfoil hats on this board. I've been around for years. Even argued with some of you previously or agreed about other things.

I can't abide the abuse towards a vulnerable minority. It's sickening.

I'll leave you to your echo chamber of bigotry & stupidity and your cherry cake teenage insults.

Anyone wants to chat my DM's are open.

I'll still be on the other boards i frequent - best regards.

Beach

Lmao Why are you all so similar and brainwashed? It's kind of crazy.

TRA: "I want a good faith discussion!"

GC :"How do you define a women?"

TRA:"OmG BiGoTs, DoGwHisTleS, BaD FaIth (insert 50 more vile insults)

Your behaviour is what is disgusting Beachcitygirl. And this is why you will lose. Because you can't make a decent argument to save your life. All you got is insults, gaslighting, a baseless superiority complex and nonsensical bullshit.

PorcelinaV · 28/04/2023 04:36

beachcitygirl · 28/04/2023 04:10

@Helleofabore almost every single regular poster on here has made some stereotypical comment re sex/gender eg cocks in frocks.
"Blokes" "men" not real, fetishists etc etc

There are a few people that seem to genuinely want to chat. Thank you for that. My DM's are open.

There's just too many bigots and rude people and some downright idiots on this board.

And I'm not fighting through screeds of bigotry &'transphobia and recipes and mocking and accusations of being a man or being a brand new member.

Area 51 levels of tinfoil hats on this board. I've been around for years. Even argued with some of you previously or agreed about other things.

I can't abide the abuse towards a vulnerable minority. It's sickening.

I'll leave you to your echo chamber of bigotry & stupidity and your cherry cake teenage insults.

Anyone wants to chat my DM's are open.

I'll still be on the other boards i frequent - best regards.

Beach

Well you didn't last long did you? And you didn't even begin to back up your position.

This forum allows both sides to make their case, so if it's an "echo chamber", it's because the trans-activists can't behave themselves, and/or their position just can't survive that well in the light of open discussion.

The real "echo chambers" are on the trans-activist side, because those lovely people hate free speech and will censor the fuck out of any opposition.

As you are running away throwing insults, OK, thinking anyone is a woman who says they are a woman, and it's all a social construct, basically makes you rather simple minded.

NickCaveisonMN · 28/04/2023 04:47

@beachcitygirl how many times? the cherry cake wasnt a Fucking insult. It was a discussion about cake.

You on the other hand have been insulting in quite a lot of your posts. There has been nothing about you're posts that has been in good faith.

We are not the bigots here.

NickCaveisonMN · 28/04/2023 04:49

And men pretending to be women are not a vulnerable minority for God's sake

Whyjustwhy123 · 28/04/2023 06:18

How is it that when women do not agree and dare to voice their view we are gaslighted into believing that we we’re behaving badly not proper for a woman?

HatThatWearsYou · 28/04/2023 06:21

So no good faith discussion then?

Colour me surprised.

HatThatWearsYou · 28/04/2023 06:22

Meant to @beachcitygirl there.

Nellodee · 28/04/2023 06:26

Can you imagine the response if one of us went onto any trans Reddit thread and asked to speak to the closet gender critical people there?

With that thought experiment in mind, I think OP had a very civilised reception and a very distorted view of this thread.

WarriorN · 28/04/2023 06:32

I'm not there at the moment, I was commenting on that thread and got the idea fir this thread. I've been offline for a bit.

See what I mean with the assumptions and bad faith. 🙄

I'm fucked off.

I was explaining why you'd not answered as many we're assuming you'd flounced.

You are the one flinging intolerance assumptions and bad faith.

anyolddinosaur · 28/04/2023 06:58

I have only read your posts, dont have time for anything else. First you dont bother with any explanation of why you were persuaded then you refuse to engage with any of the problems. I'd like to know how we can help those with genuine gender dysphoria while excluding the fake. No-one has ever come up with a satisfactory answer.

You obviously are not posting in good faith. You wish to preserve your rather muddled thinking by not engaging in discussion.

WarriorN · 28/04/2023 07:00

So the penis is a body part, real but we shouldn't have built a whole society around a body part. I mean what the fuck that's mental.
So vagina is a body part, real but we shouldn't have built a whole society around a body part.

Society doesn't.

Penises rape and thus law is needed to protect women and hold men to account.

Vaginas give birth and thus law is needed to protect women and infants..

Society is built around law.

That is all.

Who gives an iota what men do or wear? It's where they want to break the law and pretend womens rights don't matter that this board exists.

You've used this thread to name call women who stand up for women's rights. That's not feminism.

WarriorN · 28/04/2023 07:05

I dont appreciate your condescending tone re job, children, ageing parents etc.

Most of us here have that, plus our own disabilities too.

Youve not mentioned transmen.

You've not mentioned detransitioners. Children who've been harmed by this medicine.

All you've wanted to talk about is the rights of males to be female. Which you yourself agree is impossible.

It's pretty egotistical to ask for DMs.

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