Genuinely willing to discuss in good faith

[beachcitygirl]

Hello.

This is a thread for those who are uncomfortable with black and white and less than civil discourse around self id.

I welcome those with different views but I don't on this thread welcome those who only want to state their firm settled opinion without nuance or discussion that self id is absolutely wrong.

It's my view that there is no point in discussion if mind firmly made up.
I'll respect your legal right to that view but there's not much point chatting about it and pissing each other off.

There are plenty threads of gc women hoping to create more gc women and that's fine.

I'd like this to be a different space. A place for anyone with genuine questions, discussion points and where we all try to be civil and attempt to answer each other in good faith. Anyone who is unsure, let's talk:

My views are that trans women should be treated in every aspect as women and they are our natural allies against misogyny and the patriarchy and that women are more than their biology.

Thank you for responding OP, but none of what you say addresses the points or questions raised by women in this thread.

I see many people conflate Section 28 with gender identity ideology/trans rights. But the difference is that Section 28 was actually based on bigotry, rather than a desire to protect a minority group from an oppressor group. Gay men never demanded the right to call themselves women and infiltrate women's spaces. It's just not a sound analogy.

Do you recognise women as an oppressed class? Do you recognise men as the oppressor class? I'm speaking in general political terms here. Can you think of another time throughout history when the oppressor class has tried to redefine the oppressed class to include themselves, and then demanded the oppressed people's rights as their own?

Avoiding working with any transwoman does definitely sound the very definition of transphobic.

I have worked with a TW. In general, it was fine. No toilet issues as the building had single cubicles directly off a corridor. The TW did not make any difficulties over accidental misgendering AFAIK and was generally professional.

However, all my interactions with them required me to pretend to believe a lie. And not just any lie, but one that impinged on my own identity- the lie that someone who did not belong to my sex class had magically become female by dressing as a parody of a woman. I found it deeply uncomfortable-just as I would if, say, someone who was 25 insisted on identifying as 55, or being a wheelchair user when actually able-bodied.

It is psychologically and emotionally harmful to everyone around them because social interaction generally requires us to treat each other as being honest- and how can you do that if the other person is forcing you to pretend to believe a lie that you both know to be untrue?

Definitely agree in terms of safeguarding and law, but in context of your every day life and a new co-worker as the removed thread I was referencing was discussing, I'd definitely say assuming that they're not really trans and they're lying, and avoiding them at all costs in the work place because of this probably verges into discriminatory behaviour.

Like if a PoC joined your place of work, would you assume they're going to do something bad and avoid them at all costs because PoC statistically commit crimes at a higher rate?
(Ik those stats are to be taken with a pinch of salt because racism exists, but I'm just using that as an example off the top of my head as your average person doesn't deep dive into most statistics)

I find this attempt to silence other women through such petty shit nauseating. Let's face it the so called gc argument can't hold much water if one tiny thread on a board with 100's of them throws them into such a lather that they have to do that.

Actually, this a carbon copy thread. Its just boring now.

It always going the same way.

Its tedious. Everyone is just bored of the 'I'm coming on in good faith' just for the insults to follow about how awful everyone is here and how stupid everyone is. Then its accompanied by a set of arguments which are stunted in the scope and understanding of day to day impact on other women. It never gets past 'why can't we all be nice?' The problem being that theres a huge bunch of men out there who AREN'T very nice to women.

I'm so over the 'good faith' lie. Its ALWAYS insincere, so why go into it for the 36443452 time with an attitude of 'ok then, lets take it at face value and see what they have to say' only for it to be thrown back in your face by about the third reply.

The 'lather' is frustration at the bullshit superiority and attempt to morally police 'the bad feminists on MN'.

You know, you admit it doesn't affect you that much. Thats fine. Its nice to be able to bury your head in the sand. But not everyone has the same luxury and it DOES affect others on a daily basis for a multitude of reasons. And having that dismissed as somehow irrelevant is the height of arrogance and rudeness.

Why do threads like this, now get this type of massive eye rolling?

Go away and think about it...

But I don't believe people can change sex, therefore any person telling me they are the opposite sex IS LYING and therefore my interactions with them will take that into account.

" Genius "

I thought so.

lol :-D

OP I think you might have more in common than you think with the "GC" people on here. For me, I agree with most of what you say, I don't like gender stereotypes, I also know several gay and gender non conforming people who I care about.

I just think that some things in life need to be single sex, to ensure the safety and privacy of female people. I believe the vast majority of genuine trans people are absolutely not predators, but the problem is if you let in males then you also let in predators pretending to be trans.

I realise single sex spaces are tricky for trans and gender non conforming people though - which is why I think adding a third gender-neutral space where possible is the best option.

^So the penis is a body part, real but we shouldn't have built a whole society around a body part. I mean what the fuck that's mental.
So vagina is a body part, real but we shouldn't have built a whole society around a body part.^

Well, yes. And, society wasn't built, it emerged and has generally developed to suit those with penises.

There are real differences between the life experiences of men and women, even if they were in the most equal non-discriminatory tolerant and wonderful society with zero crime. Even then, you'd have to recognise that women take on the burden of reproduction, the risk and the upfront effort, simply because of their sex. You'd have to recognise that women and men face different health issues, simply because of their sex. Sports would still need to be categorised by sex for fairness and safety. I'm sure there are other things too.

And of course, we are nowhere near that kind of society. The fact is that 98% of all violence is perpetrated by men. Women are at risk from men, especially in situations where they are vulnerable. Women cannot identify which men are the risk, hence we safeguard by putting restrictions on all men in certain circumstances. Men with a "gender identity" should not be an exception to this.

Plus I have the pleasure of being a self made lady of leisure. None of that pesky work environment for me!

Hello.

My view would have been you cannot change biology but I would not have minded self ID using the female loos. There is usually male cleaning the local shopping centre toilet for example it's not like we pee in urinals for others to see (so I guess if I'd thought about it I may understand an objection to TM in male toilet). But it wasn't something I thought about and would support be kind thinking as I think everyone should be treated with respect and equality.

Im bisexual. Long history I won't go into but I'm not really out and have been married. I'm currently single and after several experiences with men now I don't want to be with men anymore. I join lesbian dating sites where I've hounded by men. Even then I would have accepted some trans women in lesbian site I just wouldn't of dated them but they are pushy and vulgar and nasty. Further highlighting to me why I don't like men in my spaces (in this case romantically/sexually in my home and my bed) but they feel entitled. I give up dating. Months pass. I notice more and more the misogyny. I was kinda raised that feminism had won and was a historical movement no longer relevant we can vote own property etc. to me feminism was the belief women and men are equal not something to actively work for and at. JK rolling tweets. I actually didn't have twitter but I'm an autistic Harry Potter fan in some fan groups. I don't understand the hate she got. I keep quiet because I don't have all the facts.

Within people I know I've watched a boy who dresses as a girl be mean to the other kids and not get told off, I've seen him forcing the girls to make out in soft play, the mother is told but makes excuses just kids playing he's just experimenting. We stop our girls mixing with him but one mother doesn't and now her daughter is trans and rejects being a girl. I can't help but see the correlation with how she's being treated as a girl and her decision she's now a boy

JKR tweets again and this time I do my research. I discovered Mumsnet and the KJK and then I join Twitter and I watch trans videos and terf videos and started reading books. Then my daughter started school from being home educated her choice- possibly this male child has ruined it for her certainly others don't come to the meet ups anymore. School don't protect sex but they protect gender. A few trans kids. It's a primary school. I look at the PSHE content and am horrified with the explicit sexual content for my primary aged child and reading the suggested kids books I see a real push towards trans ideology.

I was a gender nonconformist child myself openly saying I wanted to be a boy (because I wanted their freedoms and none of the female burden I saw within my sexist homophobia upbringing). I would have been transitions as a child. My kids are not exactly gender conforming and they are autistic. I stop being quiet about my views. I realise feminism didn't succeed it made progress and we are loosing that progress because men are telling women what to think and many women today don't understand what we have and may not have if this keeps up. As a woman who isn't at risk of loosing my job I must start speaking.

What is happening is wrong. It is sly and calculated. There is financial motivation. It's child abuse. It's women abuse. The more research I do the more terrifying it is.

Op you say TW are our allies against misogyny. I say that statement is misogyny

Op, you haven't engaged at all with the thread you started! Why is that?

At that point for me it would depend on if the individual is referring to sex or gender, or if they're conflating the two or not.

If they're conflating them, or referring to sex, I agree with you - If they're referring to their gender expression, I have no qualms calling them she so long as she has no qualms about me referring to them as a trans woman rather than just woman - Does that make sense, or not really? >.<

Except the 7 postings I have made. Including a massively long post 20'mins ago. Maybe think or read before pressing post ?

I'd love to discuss OP. Perhaps you could answer some questions.

My views are that trans women should be treated in every aspect as women

In what ways and why do you think women and men should be treated differently?

Yes I think I'm through with that snide tone, and I'm getting a crick in my neck trying to do all this looking up to you OP. The recipes incidentally are because women, when hanging around talking to each other with a few minutes to kill, chat.

Don't bother with any of my questions thanks, you've 'educated' me quite sufficiently. I don't think there's anything more I need.

Yes it does. It doesn't change my stance, but I can see how I may take that position if I was in a work environment.

But as i don't have a job or a reputation to lose in person, away from the constraints of moderators on here, no man gets addressed by me as anything that is used to describe a woman.

My view would have been you cannot change biology but I would not have minded self ID using the female loos. There is usually male cleaning the local shopping centre toilet for example it's not like we pee in urinals for others to see (so I guess if I'd thought about it I may understand an objection to TM in male toilet). But it wasn't something I thought about and would support be kind thinking as I think everyone should be treated with respect and equality.

It is not respect nor equality for women to allow men, any men, into female single sex toilets on the basis of self-id - how do you come to that conclusion? All it does is gives males the choice of all the spaces and women who cannot, for whatever reason, share spaces with males no choice whatsoever. You like the idea of women self excluding, do you? You don't think that as women are tax payers they deserve equality of provision?

On the subject of male cleaners in female toilets there is usually a damn great big sign warning of that fact, why do you think that is?

Be kind? Clearly not to women.

Only to say 'why aren't you listening to me'

Not to actually answer questions or give feedback to others concerns.

Your comments are talking AT everyone not WITH them.

They aren't remotely engaging in the heavy duty stuff. Or even attempting to.

It's just more 'why can't we get on'?

Try going back and actually engaging rather than this superficial crap.

i Think saying that TW should be treated as women in every aspect is pretty extreme - even Nicola baulked at calling Isla a woman but apparently not the OP

goady nonsense

OP "up is down, black is white, good faith is bad faith and TWAW. You are all bad feminists."

Le sigh.

@beachcitygirl you need to go look up what good faith discussion actually means. As Inigo Montoya would say:

This is an excellent question, you @beachcitygirl are stating that women and men are treated differently, why are they? Why should they be?

Also, in every aspect you think a TW presenting with a heart attack should be treated as a woman? You do realise that doing so will kill them don't you?

Have you been educated Nils? All I got from that long post was "forced down our throats" repeated over and over.

I don't recall having anything forced down my throat so I am not sure I can relate to OPs education.

None of which addressed any of the questions you have been politely asked.

" find this attempt to silence other women through such petty shit nauseating. Let's face it the so called gc argument can't hold much water if one tiny thread on a board with 100's of them throws them into such a lather "

Could you be any more patronising? Lather?
People worried about safeguarding, children, and women's safety?
And you talk about silencing?
Have you ever heard of the phrase "be kind"? That's the ULTIMATE way to silence women, and you're the one doing it.

The only one trying to silence other women on this thread is you.

Yet you're accusing others of doing so.

You aren't engaging with anyone at all.

It's all about what you think.

Don't you get the hypocrisy?

You know what would be good faith? Behaving in good faith.
There's a few questions and points that appear in every gender critical thread. Over and over and over, address those points. Don't say "I'm here in good faith", act in good faith. Answer those concerns and points with a good counter argument. Saying something doesn't make it automagically true. Saying "I'm here in good faith" doesn't mean you are acting in good faith unless you actually act in good faith. It's not a magic spell where saying the words make them true.

The reason the answers here get so gnarly so quickly is because the same thing happens here time after time after time after time after time. We see it so often. It's copy and paste cookie cutter deja vu groundhog day on repeat broken record stuck in a movie time travel loop it's impossible to break out of.

Someone comes along, says the magic spell words "I'm here in good faith to debate" and usually ends off with at least a smidge of condescension and smarm. Two things then happen; the promised good faith is absent, and after realising that the women here won't be wheesht the OP flounces off, no doubt to tell their fellow acolytes how much they showed those mumsnetters.

If you actually addressed the core points here you would get a well reasoned and good faith debate. But you didn't. I live for the day that happens, but I fear it may never happen. You say you once were gender critical, and switched. Explain how and why you switched. Address the points you must recognise from when you were gender critical. Pass on the knowledge and understanding that was passed on to you. If you are the chosen one that the legends fortell, engage with the points, otherwise you are just another Punxsutawney Phil in a long long line of identikit Punxsutawney Phils that never stop passing through.

These threads are all exactly the same, they have the "I'm here in good faith" lie + condescesion DNA plastered across them like a banner. All I think when I see one is "Oh here we go again. How long before this OP runs away from the discussion they started." Seriously we should hire a web developer to write a plugin so we can take bets on how long each OP lasts. At least it would be fun. And that's exactly where all the memes, gifs, and cake recipies come from, they know you are not here in good faith, they are just having fun in yet another one of these threads. No one is shutting you up, it's just that you don't have anything useful to say.