Is Mumsnet shutting down GC views? FAO Justine Roberts

[Pluvia]

Mumsnet, are you aware that GC views are acceptable and are held by the vast majority of people in the UK?

Why are you using the 'not in the spirit of Mumsnet' argument to shut down discussions?

In the thread about a trans co-worker you allowed pro-trans arguments presumably from the US, Australia and Canada to mount up overnight. When GC women here in the UK countered with facts this morning you shut the thread down. I didn't see a single offensive post — unless you've changed policy and now think using the medical term autogynephilia is offensive.

This is not acceptable. Maya Forstater's case established that GC views are worthy of respect and yet you seem to be censoring open debate.

I'm a lesbian too...but I have very different interpretations from you. I don't interpret this as a lack of respect for women...and actually I can't help but wonder if there is a core misogyny that underlies this interpretation.

There seems to a perception that this is mocking women, and to be at that mindset suggests to me that a person is thinking it is undesirable to be a woman, and certainly not aspirational...so they interpret it as a mockery because of this.

If you are coming from a place where you see it as aspirational and desirable to be a woman maybe you interpret it differently.

"Supporting trans rights does not mean opposing women's rights."

Quoting from upthread.

Yes, it does, if what you mean by 'trans rights' are the rights for men who don't identify as men to go into ladies' WCs and changing facilities.

Yes it does, if what you mean by 'trans rights' are the rights for men, who identify as non- men, to take scholarships set aside for women.

Etc.
Etc...

@beachcitygirl

Try this data instead of your anecdata:

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/society/articles-reports/2022/07/20/where-does-british-public-stand-transgender-rights

Yes, sorry, that's it.......'preganant and screwed'.

Women such Caroline Noakes, on one hand, seems determined to make an isue of women's issues such as menopause or sexual assault - but at the same time are seeking to effectvely replace the category of 'sex' with that of gender identity - I just don't get it! As you suggest It is most likely down middle class privilege in most instances.

According to HQ's moderation policy, we're basically just supposed to agree that a man who clumps around with a wig and make-up (because that's just what makes us women, right) can use the women's loo. I feel for the woman who started the Lucy thread - she can't say anything at work, and she can't say anything here either. If you want to argue that a man who calls himself "Lucy" has the right to encroach on women's spaces, then argue away - far better to have the conversation than for MN to delete it.

Beachgirl

Polls show the majority of women don't want to share their spaces with men. They also show that the 18 to 24 age group is the least tolerant.

The only way you can think there is no clash of rights as if you prioritise men over women.

If you don't care that men are beating women in their own sport. If you don't care that rapists are being handed incarcerated women as part of their sentence. If you don't care that women are self excluding from rape refuges, because they are being harassed by the men in them.

98% of all sex crimes are committed by men. Women need their own spaces, when they are vulnerable.

The fact is if women don't have their own category politically, biologically, legally, then they lose out.

You may not care, but you can't deny the fact.

What on earth have aspiration and ambition got to do with menstruation, menopause, pregnancy, childbirth, breastfeeding, women's sports, internal examinations, single sex hospital wards, the facts of the female body and its biology?

I don't see any of the above as detriments - just as facts of being female. You cannot identify into any of that if you are male. Being a woman is about the body, the biology - not about an identity or a feeling or a desire.

I'm quoting this post but obviously I could quote many, and in fact a self -declared GC feminist has already made a similar point on this thread to that which I'm about to make..

There are many, many nuances in this debate, and I myself hold several positions that others might identify as gender critical.

But if you find yourself getting to a point where you are recommending someone avoid someone else solely on the basis of their trans status, I think that smacks of phobia, yes.

beachcitygirl

While we're at it, do you think that lesbians deserve their own spaces? Places to be together, meet, campaign, date? And that homosexuality, as a protected characteristic, only applies to same-sex attraction?

That, in short, there is no such thing as a lesbian with a penis?

I'm going to make a stab in the dark here and guess that you probably think there is.

If you are coming from a place where you see it as aspirational and desirable to be a woman maybe you interpret it differently

absurd

aspiration is simply not relevant. A person is female or male, a man or a woman. No degree of aspiration or desire will alter that

It really doesn't matter whether there's only a few thousand women not deliriously happy to use mixed sex spaces to make men happy, or whether there's hundreds of thousands or even millions.

It's not like anyone's bothered to check, after all.

However few those women may number, they are tax payers, they are also covered by the equality act, they also have human rights.

So what do you plan to provide for them now you've opened up their previously accessible space to be kind to male people, and excluded them? Where do they go?

I' not sure if you ae referring to my posts - but I don't identify with the label 'feminist'. I'm simply a woman who thinks that women matter and have integrity as female mebers of the human race. That sex specific needs are important.

Perhaps you would like to post the links to the polls you think back up your belief that you have the same opinion as the majority.

Because we have seen the polls, and we have seen the dramatic turn around of respondents who change their answer once they know a male still have their penis. Which at least 90% do, and we have seen just how much some of them love their fully working penises on the pics they post on twitter if you accidentally follow their twitter threads.

I would suggest you either live in a bubble of people with your own opinion, or you ignore the numerous polls that show you are wrong. Or you are deliberately dishonest.

But inherent in ‘trans status’ is the fact that it involves trying to control others

not healthy to be around.

It’s fine, indeed sensible to avoid controlling people who don’t respect your boundaries

The OP said the person concerned - a male - was using the female facilities.

Pluvia, you said you're a lesbian yes? I assume you're aware of all the studies about lesbians and commissions of crime, massively overrepresented in US jails, domestic abuse in lesbian relationships being higher than in straight relationships etc etc...

Would you worry if people used these statistics and studies against us?

If you are coming from a place where you see it as aspirational and desirable to be a woman maybe you interpret it differently.

Biological sex is just neutral fact.
You can’t change sex, so ‘aspirational’ is just ‘impossible’.

It may well seem ‘desirable’ to be the opposite sex but desire is not usually an admirable motivation for anything.

Womanhood in terms of an aspiration, is a concept that makes no sense.

You might as well aspire to be a humanoid life form.

Have you got the screenshot, that's not what I saw.

It was mentioned in the OP of the thread

It is in my and many many women's views that women's rights & trans rights pose no issue to the other

Trans rights are not womens rights though. Women have the right to have separate toilets, changing rooms and sports, than men. Whilst trans women are wanting to infringe on those womens rights, they do pose an issue.

Women have the right to single sex spaces. For our safety, privacy and dignity.

Indeed. It was the whole point of the opening post. Hence people advising her to go and see HR over separate facilities, and numerous posts recommending the use of the accessible facilities. unfortunately.

I don’t care if a man is lovely

i don’t want to share a changing room with him

Ultimately this comes down to (no nuance) do you believe a man can be a woman because he says so.

I don't.

Therefore I would be classed as transphobic in the view of someone happy to deny biological reality.

I've come to the point where I can live with that because the harm to women and girls is more damaging than my belief in reality is to trans people.