Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Her App - Terfs get out

121 replies

LexMitior · 26/04/2023 16:55

It's lesbian visibility week, and Her App (lesbian dating) sent all its users a messages on terfs, and how they should leave the app.

Now this is pretty aggressive... is this a marketing ploy? Seems odd to cut down your customer base by telling women that they er, can't prefer biological women.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 28/04/2023 09:38

Hi lwrenagain

Can I ask and I'm genuinely interested to know, why you say TW have no rights?

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 28/04/2023 09:39

Sorry, so little rights

CoozudBoyuPuak · 28/04/2023 09:55

@Lwrenagain welcome!

Please do start the thread you mentioned in your earlier post about a children safeguarding issue.

I prefer AFIRF - all-female inclusive radical feminism, which is concerned for the wellbeing, equity and protection of all females regardless of gender identity (or lack of such, for those who don't have a gender identity). I am very much supportive that transwomen should not be discriminated against and should be free to live their lives in safety but that doesn't make them female and there are still and always will be some times when male people and female people need to be separate and in those circumstances the transwomen do not belong with the female people. This is not a value judgement, there's nothing wrong with being a transwomen. Identity doesn't trump reality, that's all.

Lwrenagain · 28/04/2023 13:30

Lamelie · 28/04/2023 08:14

@Lwrenagain
”I will say whilst I'm not a terf, I'm also very much into protecting people from predators which I believe lots of men who are now identify as TW. So I'm not someone who is blinded to problems of self ID etc.
I've currently got wind of something very predatory towards transkids and I'm a bit worried about posting it here because I'm a bad shithouse about being shot in flames atm, but when I'm less arsed I'd love to come back to it and discuss it.”

Why are you tying yourself in knots? Those opinions are completely reasonable and also considered terfy.

Why are you concerned about others’ opinions.

Usually I couldn't give a fuck to be completely honest, I'm just currently bedridden with pregancy illness and mumsnet is kind of my place I'm chatting to people day to day and I don't want to fall into being negative or hostile.

Sounds like my views are definitely suited within this community and I absolutely am thrilled that so many people have responded to me with genuine respect and really informative replies 🥰

Lamelie · 28/04/2023 13:42

Lwrenagain · 28/04/2023 13:30

Usually I couldn't give a fuck to be completely honest, I'm just currently bedridden with pregancy illness and mumsnet is kind of my place I'm chatting to people day to day and I don't want to fall into being negative or hostile.

Sounds like my views are definitely suited within this community and I absolutely am thrilled that so many people have responded to me with genuine respect and really informative replies 🥰

Flowers Welcome and I hope you feel better soon!
Lwrenagain · 28/04/2023 13:47

MargotBamborough · 28/04/2023 08:07

On trans rights:

You seem like a reasonable, thiughtful person, @Lwrenagain, so I'd like to ask you a question.

What rights do you think trans people do not already have, and which you think they should have?

The main laws we have in the UK protecting trans people are the Gender Recognition Act and the Equality Act.

The Gender Recognition Act allows people to be legally recognised as though they were the opposite sex to the one they actually are. This was important back in 2004 because some trans people considered themselves to be in heterosexual relationships and wanted to be able to get married. Leaving aside the question of whether defining your same sex relationship as an opposite sex relationship is suggestive of internalised homophobia, this is now redundant since anyone can marry someone of either the same or the opposite sex. In other situations, having or not having a gender recognition certificate seems to have little practical impact beyond validating someone's identity. It is recognised that in most situations it is not appropriate to ask someone if they have one, and so in reality access to single sex spaces is already a question of self ID anyway.

Labour, the Lib Dems, the Greens and the SNP think it should be made easier for people to get a gender recognition certificate by removing the requirement for a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria, reducing the length of time during which someone must have been "living in their acquired gender" and reducing the age at which someone can change their legal gender.

It's not really clear to me why this is such a priority, since in reality gender recognition certificates seem to make little difference anyway, and it's also not clear to me why someone not suffering from gender dysphoria would need to be able to change their legal gender.

The legislation is also rather confusing, in the sense that it continually conflates sex and gender. It refers to male and female as genders (i.e. not the usual meaning of these words) but fails to define male, female or gender. And it is clear that the intention of the legislation is that the person is considered to have changed sex.

Why?

Well, because changing gender wouldn't have any impact on anything, because nothing in society has ever been organised according to gender in the first place. That's why there are urinals in men's toilets and sanitary bins in women's toilets, and why there is no such thing as a toilet for non binary people.

Now on to the Equality Act.

The Equality Act establishes a number of protected characteristics, of which sex is one and gender reassignment is another.

The protected characteristic of gender reassignment is fairly broadly drafted and includes anyone planning to undergo gender reassignment. I'm pretty sure gender reassignment is not defined and so there is no requirement for this to involve undergoing any medical procedures or obtaining a gender recognition certificate. So in practice, this makes having a transgender identity itself a protected characteristic, meaning that you have a legal right not to be discriminated against on the basis of it.

The provisions of the Equality Act relating to sex have some specific features, including the fact that in some limited cases an organisation can provide single sex spaces or services on the basis of sex, and that even a trans person with a gender recognition certificate can be excluded from these spaces for members of the opposite sex where such exclusion is a proportionate way of achieving a legitimate aim. The legislation specifically gives the example of rape crisis services.

Despite this, there is now some confusion, not just among trans activists and lobby groups, but even among judges, over whether sex means biological sex or legal sex. To me it clearly means biological sex, given the specific reference to it being able to override a gender recognition certificate in limited circumstances. But now there is a question mark over this, which is why some people are calling on the government to clarify the Equality Act.

Why is this important?

Well, the way I see it, trans people already have their own protected characteristic, but trans lobby groups are trying to essentially remove the protected characteristic of biological sex from natal women by claiming that sex means legal sex and not biological sex. They aren't satisfied with trans people having their own protected characteristic and the right not to be discriminated against; they don't want women to have sex based rights of their own or the right to any single sex spaces. This is despite the fact that, in practice, hardly any organisations are willing to use the exemption in the Equality Act to provide single sex spaces or services to women at the moment anyway.

The CEO of the Edinburgh Rape Crisis centre, Mridul Wadhwa, is a trans woman who applied for the role despite the fact that it was advertised for a female candidate, relying on the exemption in the Equality Act. Wadhwa was appointed to the role and then went on record saying that some rape survivors are bigoted, and that women seeking rape crisis support who do not accept that trans women are women and have a right to provide single sex support to natal women need to "reframe their trauma" and can expect to be challenged on their prejudices.

This is not an isolated event. Sarah Summers is suing the Survivors' Network after they refused to designate even one of their women's groups as single sex and doubled down on their stance that "trans women are women". Many trans activists suggested that if Sarah and other women want single sex rape crisis support, they should fundraise for and set it up themselves rather than expecting any of the organisations that already exist to provide it. But then when JK Rowling funded and set up Beira's Place, a rape crisis centre for female survivors only, those same people immediately said this was disgusting and transphobic and that her only motivation was to give trans people another kicking, and that it should be forced to accept trans women or else be shut down.

So with all this in mind, what rights do trans people not have?

Because it seems to me that trans people already have more than sufficient protection under the law, whereas natal women's protection under the law is under constant attack from trans lobby groups.

The way I see it, they feel it is not sufficient for trans people to have protection from discrimination or the same rights as everyone else. They don't want natal women to have any rights, protection, services or spaces which exclude trans women, even where there is a clear need for them, and even where trans women can have equivalent but separate right, protection, services and spaces.

And that's where they lose my support and sympathy, I'm afraid.

Hi @MargotBamborough thanks for the genuinely interesting question and information, much of which I didn't know.

I'll be honest, I've found it very difficult to read things online that have attacked any community and seeing the rise in hate crime towards transfolk has been really distressing. I've definitely used to words "rights" incorrectly. 100% and I am sorry for doing so.
I think my problem has been is the knowing that people I have known and love be victims of abuse, simply for existing. And gender dysmorphia is such a horrid way to live. I remember as small children dressing up with my tw pal and (now she) adored coming to dress up in my mums shoes etc, back home in the 90s this friend had a very bigoted family and the years of self hatred she's endured until transitioning were awful.
Sadly, she still isn't very feminine so even though has lived as a woman since teens and has had surgery etc, she is very obviously trans and been a victim of abuse many times over.
I suppose my term of rights would be more just given the right to live comfortably as herself, to be able to get on the bus without being called a slur, to go for lunch with us without some absolute wanker trying to film her. It's just a shitty way to live life, she's a male partner who is kind to her but her self esteem is so shit from years of bullying etc she is completely reliant on him to even just escort her the shops.
I think people who've never done a single thing to hurt others having to live a life of shame and fear or persecution is just horrifying.

Honestly after reading this thread, I'm much more aware and which I thank you all, that it's not something I'm alone with, wanting people to not live in fear or shame, but I'm quite happy to also be vocal about how I also don't think we should put fear onto women either by forcing them to share safe spaces.

And back to the app, thats just awful telling lesbians they can't have opinions or preferences. That is terrifying territory and I'm actually really glad I posted here for the knowledge and insight gained.

ArabeIIaScott · 28/04/2023 14:07

I think people who've never done a single thing to hurt others having to live a life of shame and fear or persecution is just horrifying.

Completely agree. And everyone should be free to live without persecution, or harassment or discrimination.

IcakethereforeIam · 28/04/2023 14:16

@Lwrenagain thank you for your posts. Your poor friend, I teared up a bit.

nilsmousehammer · 28/04/2023 14:22

ArabeIIaScott · 28/04/2023 14:07

I think people who've never done a single thing to hurt others having to live a life of shame and fear or persecution is just horrifying.

Completely agree. And everyone should be free to live without persecution, or harassment or discrimination.

Also total agreement.

I want those standards of protection to just apply equally to everyone.

Including female people.

MargotBamborough · 28/04/2023 14:50

@Lwrenagain How sad for your friend. I'm sure most people on here, and indeed most "TERFs" would agree that she should be able to go about her life in public without being harassed or treated like a zoo animal.

Sadly I think the behaviour of trans activists is likely to make things harder rather than easier for people like your friend, because they have been making demands in the name of "trans rights" which conflict with women's rights.

And that means that women who should have been trans people's natural allies are on the defensive and feel they cannot afford to worry about trans people right now because their own rights are under threat. It didn't have to be this way.

literalviolence · 28/04/2023 15:45

@Lwrenagain What has happened to your friend is awful and shows the real battle that should be fought. I don't entirely agree that they've done nothing to hurt people. I'm sure from that you say that they've not done anything physically assaultive or deliberately harmful but actually a man calling themselves she is something I see as harmful. It is cultural appropriation of the concept of woman and is one of the building blocks TRAs use to dismantle women's rights. This is even more so if your friend has ever used a female space - loo for example. It is fine for them to be a TW - a subset of men. They should not be mocked, filmed, assaulted for their desire to wear women's clothes, do things which they believe to be women's things or in a way they believe to be women's ways, but I think we also need to be really clear what we mean by harm because reducing it to just the physical and verbal attacks without considering the things which lead up to that is never going to fully protect women.

Lwrenagain · 28/04/2023 15:55

@MargotBamborough I think that's the most accurate way to put it, most definitely.
I think women also have every right to be naturally skeptical about who is pushing certain beliefs and agendas on them. I know I struggle to be complacent with changes when so many of them come at a cost to women.
The problem with one track minded advocacy or activism is it loses its common sense to consider people as individuals.

Umbrella-ing any group of people in any way isn't without its issues.
We see this with how certain groups are segregated, not just religious or minority groups but even as far as throwing mentally ill people into asylums or institutes.

The more I've thought of all your comments and considered the possible solutions it comes down to education for both sides, it comes down to more resources and definitely things would be made easier for everyone if money was so bloody limited.

But that's the argument you can make for absolutely everything but I'm very pleased with the chats I've had on here and thank everyone for kind words, probably been my favourite thread I've commented on.

If for nothing else, #mingetout was a shout 😂

MargotBamborough · 28/04/2023 18:49

Let's make #mingetout happen!

Lwrenagain · 28/04/2023 19:30

literalviolence · 28/04/2023 15:45

@Lwrenagain What has happened to your friend is awful and shows the real battle that should be fought. I don't entirely agree that they've done nothing to hurt people. I'm sure from that you say that they've not done anything physically assaultive or deliberately harmful but actually a man calling themselves she is something I see as harmful. It is cultural appropriation of the concept of woman and is one of the building blocks TRAs use to dismantle women's rights. This is even more so if your friend has ever used a female space - loo for example. It is fine for them to be a TW - a subset of men. They should not be mocked, filmed, assaulted for their desire to wear women's clothes, do things which they believe to be women's things or in a way they believe to be women's ways, but I think we also need to be really clear what we mean by harm because reducing it to just the physical and verbal attacks without considering the things which lead up to that is never going to fully protect women.

Hi again,

Do you know what is the biggest shame here for me reading all these opinions and facts, is that there is a battle that needs fighting and if people could discuss with rationality, consideration and empathy as opposed to screaming people down, chances are that there would be a more harmonious result reached quickly. Absolute crying shame in so many situations there has to be sides pitted against each other because it rarely accomplishes a decent outcome.

Now this is probably my spiciest take on gender dysmorphia and it is that it's a MH issue, now I've a cousin who has psychosis and he often will remince about the tour he had supporting the beatles and Eric Clapton.
He's absolutely lovely and harmless, but Paul McCartney wouldn't appreciate him rocking up at his house to discuss "the good old days" because they never happened. (Well for my cousin, sure McCartney had a fab time, no pun intended 😁) and it doesn't matter how daft as shit my cousin is, he can't just go and stalk rockstars believing he is their friend. Same way he can't just marry BBC news reporters who he fancies because he's fully convinced he's in long term relationships with them. (Moria Stewart was his childhood crush and it escalated from that).
So yes, I fully appreciate that someone struggling with a MH issue cannot be putting others at risk and what I have done and admit I've been very blinkered to is putting my friends and my experiences of transfolk into situations that they don't apply.
So I will 100% work on this and I will really consider how I word things and take on board feelings and safety of everyone more so than just transfolk. It's so hard though if I'm honest to not want to wrap up people who've had enough shit with love and say, "I'll champion you/protect you all I can" but do that whilst not somehow shitting on someone else.
But I absolutely have changed my opinions going forward.

I do understand what you're saying and I appreciate they way you've worded it and thank you for respectful replies whilst my simple little noggin works on processing all this new information!

howdoesatoastermaketoast · 28/04/2023 20:06

@Lwrenagain "I'll champion you/protect you all I can"

It's a noble sentiment and does you credit. As so many people explain so well there are issues where what the best thing to say or do is not universally agreed and there are other people to be considered as new rules of etiquette emerge.

howdoesatoastermaketoast · 28/04/2023 20:07

MargotBamborough · 28/04/2023 18:49

Let's make #mingetout happen!

I can see the t-shirts now

howdoesatoastermaketoast · 28/04/2023 20:08

@MargotBamborough please let me design the logo!

literalviolence · 28/04/2023 21:47

It's so hard though if I'm honest to not want to wrap up people who've had enough shit with love and say, "I'll champion you/protect you all I can" but do that whilst not somehow shitting on someone else.

I know what you mean but we also need to bear in mind that at their worse, anti-woman trans activists do their very best to make out that women are absolutely not the ones who've had enough shit. But of course, they often are. Certainly the ones now excluded from rape support groups and rape crisis centres have had a truck load of shit. I do think you could read all sorts of meaning into the men's desires to pretend that women had no needs - it's like the men need to see all women as the perfect mummy: a person who has no needs of her own and exists for no other reason than to soothe them. Women need to not fall into the trap of believing this just because men say it with conviction.

Binglebong · 28/04/2023 22:12

I know things have moved on but that statement from Her is almost unreadable! I had to give up.

howdoesatoastermaketoast · 28/04/2023 23:24

@literalviolence [they]..."see all women as the perfect mummy: a person who has no needs of her own and exists for no other reason than to soothe them. Women need to not fall into the trap of believing this just because men say it with conviction."

very well put

howdoesatoastermaketoast · 28/04/2023 23:28

AmuseBish · 26/04/2023 18:34

This is the best thing ever! Bless Gav.

please tell me - is this a typo in the user interface or a new thing and if so anybody know what?

New posts on this thread. Refresh page