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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Her App - Terfs get out

121 replies

LexMitior · 26/04/2023 16:55

It's lesbian visibility week, and Her App (lesbian dating) sent all its users a messages on terfs, and how they should leave the app.

Now this is pretty aggressive... is this a marketing ploy? Seems odd to cut down your customer base by telling women that they er, can't prefer biological women.

OP posts:
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myveryownelectrickitten · 27/04/2023 11:09

Lwrenagain · 26/04/2023 18:47

I never comment really on these topics as I'm not a terf and I've a few very good trans friends so it's not group for me to really have any input.

However this has really pissed me off.
Many years ago I worked with a bloke who's sister was a lesbian and he believed she should have been made to at least try to experience heterosexual sex as to rule out it wasn't for her.
So essentially rape. The absolute giant fucking pleb.
Anyway, I know it's not the same but it's that fucking cheek of expecting a woman to be comfortable with something they aren't. It's absolutely unfair and I'm sorry to anyone experiencing this.

(I will say whilst I'm not a terf, I'm also very much into protecting people from predators which I believe lots of men who are now identify as TW. So I'm not someone who is blinded to problems of self ID etc.
I've currently got wind of something very predatory towards transkids and I'm a bit worried about posting it here because I'm a bad shithouse about being shot in flames atm, but when I'm less arsed I'd love to come back to it and discuss it.)

You could probably do without using the kneejerk, misogynist and offensive term “terf”, to be honest — anyone using that is buying in to a load of fraudulent and deeply sexist lies.

MargotBamborough · 27/04/2023 11:21

myveryownelectrickitten · 27/04/2023 11:09

You could probably do without using the kneejerk, misogynist and offensive term “terf”, to be honest — anyone using that is buying in to a load of fraudulent and deeply sexist lies.

I think that because the people who use it are the self appointed good guys, a lot of other people think it's either not a bad word, or the people it's used about are so bad that it's justified.

Once you start talking to "TERFs" and understand what their actual point of view is, it becomes harder to justify.

ArcticSkewer · 27/04/2023 12:01

MargotBamborough · 27/04/2023 11:21

I think that because the people who use it are the self appointed good guys, a lot of other people think it's either not a bad word, or the people it's used about are so bad that it's justified.

Once you start talking to "TERFs" and understand what their actual point of view is, it becomes harder to justify.

Especially when you realise you are also a terf, according to transactivist definition.
Having trans friends and wishing them well isn't the get out you might have thought it was.

MerlinsLostMarbles · 27/04/2023 12:08

BettyFilous · 26/04/2023 17:03

Aside from the bone-headedness, how is that legal? Gender critical beliefs are protected under the Equality Act. Is this not direct discrimination?

Her is a private app. Noone has a legal right to use it.

MargotBamborough · 27/04/2023 12:12

MerlinsLostMarbles · 27/04/2023 12:08

Her is a private app. Noone has a legal right to use it.

Tell that to the trans activists attacking Giggle.

ArabeIIaScott · 27/04/2023 13:01

MerlinsLostMarbles · 27/04/2023 12:08

Her is a private app. Noone has a legal right to use it.

Well, this is the 'gay B&B' argument, isn't it?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/09/bed-and-breakfast-gay-couple-appeal

Using that logic, an app excluding people for their race, religion or sexuality, would be okay, too?

Obviously, an app set up for Buddhists is likely to be most interest to Buddhists, but could they legally exclude a Sikh who wanted to join?

Genuinely curious. I'm not sure these matters are at all settled, legally.

B&B owner who turned away gay couple loses appeal

Judges uphold ruling that Susanne Wilkinson discriminated against couple, but grant leave to take case to supreme court

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/09/bed-and-breakfast-gay-couple-appeal

WeeBisom · 27/04/2023 13:28

The Equality Act applies to all services, including digital services, websites and apps. They aren't allowed to discriminate against anyone with protected characteristics. Maya's case established that gender critical beliefs are one of the protected characteristics under 'religion and belief', so technically Her can't ban gender critical people.

TheBiologyStupid · 27/04/2023 16:35

literalviolence · 26/04/2023 20:38

@Lwrenagain I'm afraid you are a radicalised term. The views you describe are full on terftastic. Anyone who does not think men can become women is a terf. What you've said about your trans friend not encroaching on women's spaces is particularly right wing (apparently). The thing is, terfs mostly do think like you. There's very few people who want trans people to be excluded from sex appropriate spaces or discriminated against because they wear clothes traditionally for the opposite sex or choose to have body altering surgery. It is TRA propaganda to suggest that those you describe as terfs do actually feel so anti trans. Please don't fall for it. You are as terf as they come. Terf is not a self ID. It's a statement that you believe in biological reality and sex based attraction.

This!

BettyFilous · 27/04/2023 20:03

AlisonDonut · 27/04/2023 09:54

I've searched for Giggle on this thread and not found it, but if you are actually interested in female only apps etc, then Giggle is currently fighting against a man trying to claim 'discrimination' as they use face recogniction software to only allow women onto the app. So if you are wanting to uphold these spaces, please do support Sall Grover in her quest to keep her app single sex.

salltweets on twitter.

Sall is the one on the right, being taken to Federal court by Roxy Tickle, on the left. For those who are not TERFs and do not understand the boundaries between male and female.

I heard Sal Grover on a podcast recently. She is planning a women only lesbian dating service as part of the Giggle relaunch.

BettyFilous · 27/04/2023 20:08

I should have been clearer. If I recall it was a lesbian dating app using the same facial recognition as Giggle.

Righthandcider · 27/04/2023 20:30

Thank you 😂

Righthandcider · 27/04/2023 20:32

Righthandcider · 27/04/2023 20:30

Thank you 😂

Oh dear, I really need a lie down.

That was intended for @ArabeIIaScott to thank her for explaining her joke.

Don't mind me.

howdoesatoastermaketoast · 27/04/2023 20:56

BettyFilous · 27/04/2023 20:08

I should have been clearer. If I recall it was a lesbian dating app using the same facial recognition as Giggle.

this sounds like a very good idea

howdoesatoastermaketoast · 27/04/2023 20:59

That was intended for @ArabeIIaScott to thank her for explaining her joke.

I would like to second those thanks I thought it was a great name but to my embarrassment totally failed to get it. 🍻

Lwrenagain · 28/04/2023 07:08

Thanks for replies and explanations!

I have to be honest, this whole thing is so much more complex than I realised.
I've been discussing it alot with DP who is full of logic and empathy and he is a full "knowledge is power" type as where I'm traditionally more "let the heart lead, see where you end up" type. So it's been really insightful. Sorry to anyone offended by me using the word terf. I've seen posts describing people themselves as such so had no idea it was a slur.

From what my brain can fathom here is its not just transfolk transitioning, it's society and whilst we make changes to protect the rights of transpeoples we need to protect the rights of everyone else also.
It's a huge adjustment for everyone now transitioning is becoming so popular and whilst I categorically would never put anyone in harms way, (eg a tw in male prison) I also have really thought about what is the alternative and it's possibly far more exclusionary than I thought immediately but I don't think female prisons are correct either so something needs to be done to keep Transfolks safe without risking the safety of women.
I suppose that any outcome will segregate Trans prisoners and no it isn't inclusive, however I accept that to accommodate for everyone's safety, a third option needs to be made available.

I think what I'm learning very fast is you can't please everyone whilst protecting everyone, at some point to some one, you're the bad guy.

And then so fucking be it, because I'm always going to champion the side of keeping people safe than being concerned about offending someone.
On either side of the argument, I'd never throw anyone purposely in harms way.

For full transparency my TW friends hold extremely similar views to many of the ones you've kindly shared with me and one is very vocal about biomen in sport etc which I'm sure I'll be looking into next 🙈😂

MargotBamborough · 28/04/2023 07:37

@Lwrenagain

On the word "TERF":

The way I see it, the word "TERF" could be compared to the "N" word in the sense that the fact that some people in the group concerned have chosen to reclaim it and use it about themselves does not change the fact that when other people use it about them, it is a misogynistic slur. It's one of those words that is only really acceptable when someone is using it about themselves or about a group they consider themselves to be part of, if that makes sense.

That's the case when we're clear that we are talking about gender critical feminists, anyway.

It's also worth noting that trans activists aren't so discriminating when they use it, and essentially use it as a synonym of "transphobe" which is a problem in itself. The word "transphobe" is used to describe anyone from people who genuinely hate trans people, to JK Rowling who has made it clear that she cares about trans people but she also cares deeply about women's rights and child safeguarding, to Sarah Summers who is just trying to ensure that female rape survivors can get the single sex support they need. The word has become worse than meaningless, because it means that left leaning feminist women who care about women's rights, gay rights and child safeguarding and lumped into the same category as right wing religious conservatives who probably would like to make being trans illegal.

Obviously there are many gender critical feminists who aren't in the least bit transphobic, and there are many who hate trans people who aren't in the least bit feminist, but this nuance is lost on (or at least unacknowledged by) trans activists.

CherryTreeBloom · 28/04/2023 08:06

The account names is back and as batshit as ever. In fairness, Glinner is back too.

Her App - Terfs get out
MargotBamborough · 28/04/2023 08:07

On trans rights:

You seem like a reasonable, thiughtful person, @Lwrenagain, so I'd like to ask you a question.

What rights do you think trans people do not already have, and which you think they should have?

The main laws we have in the UK protecting trans people are the Gender Recognition Act and the Equality Act.

The Gender Recognition Act allows people to be legally recognised as though they were the opposite sex to the one they actually are. This was important back in 2004 because some trans people considered themselves to be in heterosexual relationships and wanted to be able to get married. Leaving aside the question of whether defining your same sex relationship as an opposite sex relationship is suggestive of internalised homophobia, this is now redundant since anyone can marry someone of either the same or the opposite sex. In other situations, having or not having a gender recognition certificate seems to have little practical impact beyond validating someone's identity. It is recognised that in most situations it is not appropriate to ask someone if they have one, and so in reality access to single sex spaces is already a question of self ID anyway.

Labour, the Lib Dems, the Greens and the SNP think it should be made easier for people to get a gender recognition certificate by removing the requirement for a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria, reducing the length of time during which someone must have been "living in their acquired gender" and reducing the age at which someone can change their legal gender.

It's not really clear to me why this is such a priority, since in reality gender recognition certificates seem to make little difference anyway, and it's also not clear to me why someone not suffering from gender dysphoria would need to be able to change their legal gender.

The legislation is also rather confusing, in the sense that it continually conflates sex and gender. It refers to male and female as genders (i.e. not the usual meaning of these words) but fails to define male, female or gender. And it is clear that the intention of the legislation is that the person is considered to have changed sex.

Why?

Well, because changing gender wouldn't have any impact on anything, because nothing in society has ever been organised according to gender in the first place. That's why there are urinals in men's toilets and sanitary bins in women's toilets, and why there is no such thing as a toilet for non binary people.

Now on to the Equality Act.

The Equality Act establishes a number of protected characteristics, of which sex is one and gender reassignment is another.

The protected characteristic of gender reassignment is fairly broadly drafted and includes anyone planning to undergo gender reassignment. I'm pretty sure gender reassignment is not defined and so there is no requirement for this to involve undergoing any medical procedures or obtaining a gender recognition certificate. So in practice, this makes having a transgender identity itself a protected characteristic, meaning that you have a legal right not to be discriminated against on the basis of it.

The provisions of the Equality Act relating to sex have some specific features, including the fact that in some limited cases an organisation can provide single sex spaces or services on the basis of sex, and that even a trans person with a gender recognition certificate can be excluded from these spaces for members of the opposite sex where such exclusion is a proportionate way of achieving a legitimate aim. The legislation specifically gives the example of rape crisis services.

Despite this, there is now some confusion, not just among trans activists and lobby groups, but even among judges, over whether sex means biological sex or legal sex. To me it clearly means biological sex, given the specific reference to it being able to override a gender recognition certificate in limited circumstances. But now there is a question mark over this, which is why some people are calling on the government to clarify the Equality Act.

Why is this important?

Well, the way I see it, trans people already have their own protected characteristic, but trans lobby groups are trying to essentially remove the protected characteristic of biological sex from natal women by claiming that sex means legal sex and not biological sex. They aren't satisfied with trans people having their own protected characteristic and the right not to be discriminated against; they don't want women to have sex based rights of their own or the right to any single sex spaces. This is despite the fact that, in practice, hardly any organisations are willing to use the exemption in the Equality Act to provide single sex spaces or services to women at the moment anyway.

The CEO of the Edinburgh Rape Crisis centre, Mridul Wadhwa, is a trans woman who applied for the role despite the fact that it was advertised for a female candidate, relying on the exemption in the Equality Act. Wadhwa was appointed to the role and then went on record saying that some rape survivors are bigoted, and that women seeking rape crisis support who do not accept that trans women are women and have a right to provide single sex support to natal women need to "reframe their trauma" and can expect to be challenged on their prejudices.

This is not an isolated event. Sarah Summers is suing the Survivors' Network after they refused to designate even one of their women's groups as single sex and doubled down on their stance that "trans women are women". Many trans activists suggested that if Sarah and other women want single sex rape crisis support, they should fundraise for and set it up themselves rather than expecting any of the organisations that already exist to provide it. But then when JK Rowling funded and set up Beira's Place, a rape crisis centre for female survivors only, those same people immediately said this was disgusting and transphobic and that her only motivation was to give trans people another kicking, and that it should be forced to accept trans women or else be shut down.

So with all this in mind, what rights do trans people not have?

Because it seems to me that trans people already have more than sufficient protection under the law, whereas natal women's protection under the law is under constant attack from trans lobby groups.

The way I see it, they feel it is not sufficient for trans people to have protection from discrimination or the same rights as everyone else. They don't want natal women to have any rights, protection, services or spaces which exclude trans women, even where there is a clear need for them, and even where trans women can have equivalent but separate right, protection, services and spaces.

And that's where they lose my support and sympathy, I'm afraid.

Lamelie · 28/04/2023 08:14

@Lwrenagain
”I will say whilst I'm not a terf, I'm also very much into protecting people from predators which I believe lots of men who are now identify as TW. So I'm not someone who is blinded to problems of self ID etc.
I've currently got wind of something very predatory towards transkids and I'm a bit worried about posting it here because I'm a bad shithouse about being shot in flames atm, but when I'm less arsed I'd love to come back to it and discuss it.”

Why are you tying yourself in knots? Those opinions are completely reasonable and also considered terfy.

Why are you concerned about others’ opinions.

MargotBamborough · 28/04/2023 08:18

Lamelie · 28/04/2023 08:14

@Lwrenagain
”I will say whilst I'm not a terf, I'm also very much into protecting people from predators which I believe lots of men who are now identify as TW. So I'm not someone who is blinded to problems of self ID etc.
I've currently got wind of something very predatory towards transkids and I'm a bit worried about posting it here because I'm a bad shithouse about being shot in flames atm, but when I'm less arsed I'd love to come back to it and discuss it.”

Why are you tying yourself in knots? Those opinions are completely reasonable and also considered terfy.

Why are you concerned about others’ opinions.

I think @Lwrenagain is using the word "TERF" as a synonym of "transphobe".

If you look at it like that, it makes perfect sense.

"I'm not a transphobe but I do have some concerns about safeguarding."

That is a perfectly reasonable stance which most people would agree with, although some bad actors would no doubt equate it to, "I'm not a racist, but..."

JamHam · 28/04/2023 08:23

This was what triggered the ban.

Her App - Terfs get out
Lamelie · 28/04/2023 08:25

MargotBamborough · 28/04/2023 08:18

I think @Lwrenagain is using the word "TERF" as a synonym of "transphobe".

If you look at it like that, it makes perfect sense.

"I'm not a transphobe but I do have some concerns about safeguarding."

That is a perfectly reasonable stance which most people would agree with, although some bad actors would no doubt equate it to, "I'm not a racist, but..."

Yes. It’s a good example of how toxic the debate is. Someone with reasonable views is silenced because she’s gaslit by men and handmaidens.

ArabeIIaScott · 28/04/2023 08:58

I think what I'm learning very fast is you can't please everyone whilst protecting everyone, at some point to some one, you're the bad guy.

Yes, this is very much the reality of the world!

RudsyFarmer · 28/04/2023 09:00

So it’s a dating app for transgender women it seems.

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