Would you ever consider a transwoman a woman?

[ZeldaFighter]

If a person had transitioned from male to female early in life and had lived quietly and unobtrusively as a woman for say 20 or 30 years, would you consider offering that person the status of "womanhood"?

Would you go on a girls night in a group with them?

Would you think differently if the person had had gender reassignment surgery?

What if they did actually pass?

What if they had a husband and kids?

This isn't a gotcha and I don't know the answers. I am instinctively annoyed by the taking away of women's things but I am also dismayed by the hurt and harm potentially caused to trans people. I'm trying to decide my own position and wondering if there are compromise positions. Apologies if this has been asked before and thank you for your thoughts.

I’d really like to know what a balanced view is to you specifically. You haven’t answered the question put out and I assume you have some kind of balanced opinion to add rather?

As it happens, I think there’s no way to every say yes to this question unless you really don’t think there’s any difference, biological or otherwise, between male born and female born people. If you argue that TWAW but concede on anything (say sports, for example) then you can’t really believe that TWAW after all.

And there’s nothing wrong with being a man who doesn’t conform to gender stereotypes

Loads of us on MN have been saying for years that it is a good thing if men challenge gender stereotypes and seek to expand the bandwidth of masculinity.

The problem isn’t men in dresses, make up, even unnecessary sports bras. The problem is the ideology that says that wearing this stuff makes them women. And displacing female people because male people are more important ‘women’ than they could ever be.

If other men are a danger to men who don’t conform to gender stereotypes, then that’s a problem within the category of men. It’s not a reason to tell women to budge up and make space.

No I wouldn't.

Society does need to find a way to make the name and concept of 'transwoman' as benign/worthy as the names and concepts of 'woman' and 'man', are. Then perhaps we could achieve peaceful coexistence.

It's interesting that we don't hear anything from 'transmen' who just seem to get on with their lives without fanfare... and good luck to them too!

No. They're a transwoman.

Yet when the shoes on the other foot and men "pretend to be women" (as the bigots put it) there's absolute outrage.

We ALL know that a ‘balanced’ opinion is one that is weighted heavily towards giving male people what they want.

You know that research finding that people feel that women are dominating meetings and taking over if (collectively) their contributions reach something like the dizzying heights of 1/3 of the contributions collectively made by men. This is the opinion version of that. If there’s more than a tokenistic acknowledgement of women, then it is ‘unbalanced’ and unfair.

It’s one of those ‘balanced’ systems where the fulcrum has to be hugely offset from the midpoint.

No, but I would treat them with kindness and respect as I try to treat other people regardless of their personal characteristics. However I don’t think we would be close friends.

I hope this thread goes the way you’ve wanted OP. I’ve read only first few pages.

It’s not the same. Because the power dynamics of patriarchy all the difference.

It’s not “bigoted” to recognise this. OTOH, denying it… 😮‍💨

Why are genderists so binary/black and white?

It's really not that hard.

It's not "pretending" per se that's the problem, although in a sexist society the different power dynamics of male and female means some pretending is a problem.

It's the insistence that these men are women, because that imposes the sexist and reductive belief that womanhood is a mental rather than physical difference on all women whether that reflects how they experience their own lives and identities or not, and the subsequent leveraging of this imposed definition to appropriate resources that were set up to mitigate the consequences of being female within a structurally sexist society and hand them over to male people.

But you know, that's just my coherent and self consistent analysis that fits the observed facts.

So hey, here's an idea! Instead of little snipey asides about what others believe, which might sound clever but can be easily dismissed with a moment's actual thought, why don't you present a coherent alternative view of sex/gender that better fits the observed facts than ours? You do have one, right? I mean, surely no one would be shallow enough to make snippy little comments criticising others without a strong, clear understanding of why they are wrong behind it?

My point is that Jk Rowling pretends to be a man whilst simultaneously criticising the reverse. It's illogical

No

I’d go out for drinks with them but I wouldn’t consider them a suitable candidate for a job that involves intimate care or examinations for women, nor would I vote for them to represent women in parliament. Not would I want them on my sports team or competing against me in a rival teamz

They don’t occupy a female body.
Only a facsimile of one.

Not a problem on a night of cocktails, but definitely a problem when talking about important statistics re: impact on female bodies (eg car crash injuries or rates of disease).

No, they are fish out of water, I'm afraid.

Yes - this is how I feel.

Jesus. Comprehension is not your strong point.

JK Rowling, renowned children’s fantasy author and woman, deciding to publish her adult crime novels under a male pseudonym is not ‘illogical’. Because being a woman, and especially a woman already associated with children’s fiction (the least serious kind possible!), makes it very hard to get publishers or the public to take you seriously as a crime author.

Men do not face the same barriers. So it’s patently not the same thing in reverse.

Do you think that black South Africans who could pass as white during apartheid doing so to secure employment and housing is equivalent to, for example, a white American claiming to be black to access funding and job positions reserved to overcome structural racism? No. Of course not. Because the power dynamics are completely different.

Sex is just as caught up in problematic power dynamics as race. There are big differences between racism and sexism. Important differences. But the point is that the powerful, dominant group presenting as if they are the weaker, dominated group is very different to the reverse.

You probably realise this. But want to pretend it’s not the case and women are just making a fuss about nothing.

My point is that Jk Rowling pretends to be a man whilst simultaneously criticising the reverse. It's illogical

But JK Rowling isn't pretending to be a man. She is publishing under a male pseudonym which is not the same as claiming to change sex.

She doesn’t pretend to be a man - what are you talking about?

My point is that Jk Rowling pretends to be a man whilst simultaneously criticising the reverse. It's illogical

Your point isn’t a point. JK Rowling writes using her initials, like many writers, both male and female. In what way does she “pretend to be a man”?

Oh you mean she writes under a different name?! Yes, it’s commonly known as a nom de plume (name of the feather from when quills were used) or a pen name.

Oh I forgot the Galbraith pseudonym. But it’s a pseudonym, not “pretending to be a man”.

LOL at a male pseudonym being the same as identifying at trans 😂

I sign my emails at work Initial surname for the same reason - systemic sexism, and trust me I am not trans!

MN is the epicentre of harm? Not the Tavistock? Or TikTok?

Post and ghost?

For anyone who wonders why a reasoned debate is not possible, here is the explanation. I reserved the right to make unfounded accusations about people and then stick my fingers in my ears because I would be hurt to find out that people don't think my personal circumstances should be prioritised above anyone else's.

I doubt JK Rowling was sitting in a pair of y fronts with the football on in the background* whilst she was writing her detective books 🤣

*insert own male stereotype here